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Was Jane Seymour Henry's True Love?
March 23, 2011
10:14 am
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Sharon
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Okay I'm sorry about that! I was having a hard time saving my post.

March 25, 2011
2:02 am
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Toucansandpugs
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MegC said:

There is a vast difference between calling someone your “true love” and calling someone your “true wife”.  

I think, in Henry's eyes, Jane was his true wife because she fulfilled the requirement that he deemed necessary to establish her place as his wife:  she bore him a son.  The ONLY one of his six wives to accomplish that feat.  Think about it:  One of the pieces of evidence that Henry used against Katherine in their divorce was her inability to have a son who survived infancy.  He used this as evidence that God viewed their marriage as unholy and to establish that, because of that, Katherine was still his brother's wife despite the fact Arthur was long dead.  Anne failed to produce a male heir, which, in accordance with Henry's way of thinking at that time, established that Anne's and Henry's marriage was also not holy and Henry saw to it that their divorce was decreed before Anne's execution.  In walks Jane Seymour and manages to not only produce a son, but dies during the delivery of said prince.  Holy crap!  Sign that woman up for sainthood!  This was the sign Henry was looking for.  Painting the royal family portrait with Jane Seymour further legitimized Edward's claim to the throne:  Jane Seymour was my true wife, she produced a legitimate son, he is the next King of England.  As Nasim has pointed out on another thread, the Catholic Church didn't recognize Edward as legitimate.  Perhaps Henry was attempting to strengthen Edward's position.  Edward was a young king and there were still a lot of people out there who supported Mary's claim to the throne as Katherine's daughter.  

Now, was Jane his “true love”?  I have to agree that I don't think Henry really loved anyone but himself.  To say that we should take him at his word seems ridiculous to me:  This is the man who said that Katherine Howard was a virgin and Anne of Cleves wasn't.  Henry seems to have frequently said whatever needed to be said to get what he wanted.  From what I understand of Henry, he was less than pleasant to Jane after the honeymoon period was over until she managed to get pregnant.  I don't think Jane's death giving Henry an heir stirred any more love for her in his breast than he felt for her when she was alive.  He certainly tolerated her.   But just because he observed a somewhat proper period of mourning for her, does not necessarily mean that he loved her.  And just because he respected her “sacrifice” does not mean that he loved her (I respect a lot of people that I don't want to marry).

Did he REALLY call her his true love, or merely his true wife?  I just contend that there's a big difference between the two.

Well, I guess we'll never know for sure. Unless we travel in a time machine and find out! 🙂


March 25, 2011
2:22 am
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La Belle Creole
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Lady said:

Mademoiselle_Boleyn said:

i definitely agree w/ you Emma! ….i read once somewhere how henry “moved heaven and earth” to be with anne, which is certainly true. end of story. anne was his true love[Image Can Not Be Found]


I think that Henry \”moved heaven and earth\” to marry Anne because he wanted to get what was out of his hand. Once he got it he lost all interest in the matter. What Henry felt for Anne was far from love I think and neither was it lust. I think it was a caprice.

Jane was the \”true wife\” according to Henry's view. I doubt if Henry could feel \”true love\” for someone but in case he did, I think he could have had  feelings for Bessie Blount. Of couse those feelings vanished soon, we are talking about Henry.

 


I have to agree that, according to Henry VIII's own “reasoning,” his first two marriages were “cursed” and “unlawful” due to the absence of live, healthy male offspring.  Jane Seymour fulfilled the “requirement” Henry needed in order to view his marriage as legitimate (and “true.”)  It was also politically expedient for Henry to acknowledge Jane as his beloved, true wife whenever possible in order to confirm Edward's legitimacy.

I don't believe Henry VIII loved any of his wives and children in a healthy, complete manner.  I don't believe he loved Anne.  When you really think about it, everything Henry did to Anne shows a lack of love.  Without his intervention, Anne would have likely lived a comfortable, pleasant life married to a suitable courtier.  If he'd truly cared about Anne, the last thing he would have wanted was to witness her reviled as a harlot and a concubine and scapegoated for the whole Great Matter.  If he'd loved Anne the slightest bit, some of that love would have found its way to their daughter despite his disappointment over the child's gender.  No man who honestly loved a woman would orphan her child.  Heck, even if he DID honestly love her but doubted her ability to bear a healthy son, he did not have to kill her. 

Henry used Anne for incredibly selfish reasons, and he didn't hesitate to take her life once he'd taken everything else.

March 25, 2011
8:38 am
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MegC
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La Belle Creole said:

Lady said:

Mademoiselle_Boleyn said:

i definitely agree w/ you Emma! ….i read once somewhere how henry “moved heaven and earth” to be with anne, which is certainly true. end of story. anne was his true love[Image Can Not Be Found]


I think that Henry \”moved heaven and earth\” to marry Anne because he wanted to get what was out of his hand. Once he got it he lost all interest in the matter. What Henry felt for Anne was far from love I think and neither was it lust. I think it was a caprice.
 

Jane was the \”true wife\” according to Henry's view. I doubt if Henry could feel \”true love\” for someone but in case he did, I think he could have had  feelings for Bessie Blount. Of couse those feelings vanished soon, we are talking about Henry.

 


I have to agree that, according to Henry VIII's own “reasoning,” his first two marriages were “cursed” and “unlawful” due to the absence of live, healthy male offspring.  Jane Seymour fulfilled the “requirement” Henry needed in order to view his marriage as legitimate (and “true.”)  It was also politically expedient for Henry to acknowledge Jane as his beloved, true wife whenever possible in order to confirm Edward's legitimacy.
 

I don't believe Henry VIII loved any of his wives and children in a healthy, complete manner.  I don't believe he loved Anne.  When you really think about it, everything Henry did to Anne shows a lack of love.  Without his intervention, Anne would have likely lived a comfortable, pleasant life married to a suitable courtier.  If he'd truly cared about Anne, the last thing he would have wanted was to witness her reviled as a harlot and a concubine and scapegoated for the whole Great Matter.  If he'd loved Anne the slightest bit, some of that love would have found its way to their daughter despite his disappointment over the child's gender.  No man who honestly loved a woman would orphan her child.  Heck, even if he DID honestly love her but doubted her ability to bear a healthy son, he did not have to kill her. 

Henry used Anne for incredibly selfish reasons, and he didn't hesitate to take her life once he'd taken everything else.

@La Belle Creole:  I totally agree!  Anne gave Henry, literally, the best years of her life and all she got in return was a Frenchman's sword.


"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

March 26, 2011
9:37 am
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Anyanka
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MegC said:

La Belle Creole said:

Henry used Anne for incredibly selfish reasons, and he didn't hesitate to take her life once he'd taken everything else.

@La Belle Creole:  I totally agree!  Anne gave Henry, literally, the best years of her life and all she got in return was a Frenchman's sword.



And an unsavoury post-mortum reputation.

It's always bunnies.

May 20, 2011
6:04 am
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Nutmeg
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I think Henry was not really capable of loving anyone other than himself, as others have already pointed out before.

 

But I do think that he wanted to believe that Jane was his true wife and his true love, and, born out of the wish to believe this, he really did believe it in the end. I think, one important aspect is his religious belief there.

He thought his marriage to Katherine of Aragon to have been cursed from the beginning because she had been married to his brother.  Henry's “evidence” for this was the fact that she could not bear him a son who lived even remotely long enough.

While I guess a lot of this “my marriage is cursed”  idea was born in Henry's mind to find a great way to get rid of the wife who could not bear him any more children due to her age, I have the impression (which is of course only a wild guess), that Henry was someone who started to believe the things and lies he told himself and saw them as absolute truths after a while. 

I think his passion for Anne was born out of the same reason. Here was this fascinating woman he thought absolutely capable of bearing him a son, so he had to have her, because surly this must have been God's true will.

But then after three years he found that Anne could not bear him a son as well. So maybe he thought – after his own already arising doubts, of course – that his marriage to Anne obviously was not santioned by God, either. So another cursed marriage that was against God's will, with no prospect of having a healthy son, ever.

Jane finally gave him the son he craved for. And the son he probably saw as a sign from God that this marriage was good and God's will. Even though she died, Edward was living proof that Jane was the one wife – the only wife – to be sanctioned by God. So maybe in Henry's eyes, she was his true love. Because God willed it to be that way. And God's will and Henry's were evidently always the same – in Henry's opinion.

May 20, 2011
8:45 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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Nutmeg said:

I think Henry was not really capable of loving anyone other than himself, as others have already pointed out before.

 

But I do think that he wanted to believe that Jane was his true wife and his true love, and, born out of the wish to believe this, he really did believe it in the end. I think, one important aspect is his religious belief there.

He thought his marriage to Katherine of Aragon to have been cursed from the beginning because she had been married to his brother.  Henry's “evidence” for this was the fact that she could not bear him a son who lived even remotely long enough.

While I guess a lot of this “my marriage is cursed”  idea was born in Henry's mind to find a great way to get rid of the wife who could not bear him any more children due to her age, I have the impression (which is of course only a wild guess), that Henry was someone who started to believe the things and lies he told himself and saw them as absolute truths after a while. 

I think his passion for Anne was born out of the same reason. Here was this fascinating woman he thought absolutely capable of bearing him a son, so he had to have her, because surly this must have been God's true will.

But then after three years he found that Anne could not bear him a son as well. So maybe he thought – after his own already arising doubts, of course – that his marriage to Anne obviously was not santioned by God, either. So another cursed marriage that was against God's will, with no prospect of having a healthy son, ever.

Jane finally gave him the son he craved for. And the son he probably saw as a sign from God that this marriage was good and God's will. Even though she died, Edward was living proof that Jane was the one wife – the only wife – to be sanctioned by God. So maybe in Henry's eyes, she was his true love. Because God willed it to be that way. And God's will and Henry's were evidently always the same – in Henry's opinion.


I really like your answer, Nutmeg. Henry's life is proof that absolute power corrupts absolutely. By the time Jane came around, the princely ways of young Henry were gone, and he had turned into the paranoid tyrant who believed his word was truth, and everyone else was suspect.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

March 2, 2012
2:27 pm
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Boleyn
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AnnesAdmire1024 said

I have to agree with the ones who say Jane is not Henry’s true love. I believe he said that because she gave him a son that is all! Yell I believe he was truly in love with Anne  why else would he spent so much of his life trying to be with her just because he did not spare her from death does not mean he didn’t love her he was manipulated by those around him including the Seymour’s and was frustrated that God would not give him a male heir. He was not in the proper state of mind after his accident and I truly believe he may have stayed with Anne if those around him did not persuade him that she was evil

Totally with you on this one. Although Henry may have said to others that Jane was his true love, he never believed it himself. Jane was excepted as his true love because of Edward. The only real true love save himself was Anne, once she was executed, he never forgot her, and I think always loved her, but really henry was in love with himself (hope that makes sence). If you really think about this you could say that Bessie Blount was Henry’s true love as she was the one who proved he was capable of fathering boys. Henry’s love life revolved entirely around himself.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 3, 2012
8:15 pm
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Boleyn
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Toucansandpugs said

MegC said:

There is a vast difference between calling someone your “true love” and calling someone your “true wife”.  

I think, in Henry’s eyes, Jane was his true wife because she fulfilled the requirement that he deemed necessary to establish her place as his wife:  she bore him a son.  The ONLY one of his six wives to accomplish that feat.  Think about it:  One of the pieces of evidence that Henry used against Katherine in their divorce was her inability to have a son who survived infancy.  He used this as evidence that God viewed their marriage as unholy and to establish that, because of that, Katherine was still his brother’s wife despite the fact Arthur was long dead.  Anne failed to produce a male heir, which, in accordance with Henry’s way of thinking at that time, established that Anne’s and Henry’s marriage was also not holy and Henry saw to it that their divorce was decreed before Anne’s execution.  In walks Jane Seymour and manages to not only produce a son, but dies during the delivery of said prince.  Holy crap!  Sign that woman up for sainthood!  This was the sign Henry was looking for.  Painting the royal family portrait with Jane Seymour further legitimized Edward’s claim to the throne:  Jane Seymour was my true wife, she produced a legitimate son, he is the next King of England.  As Nasim has pointed out on another thread, the Catholic Church didn’t recognize Edward as legitimate.  Perhaps Henry was attempting to strengthen Edward’s position.  Edward was a young king and there were still a lot of people out there who supported Mary’s claim to the throne as Katherine’s daughter.  

Now, was Jane his “true love”?  I have to agree that I don’t think Henry really loved anyone but himself.  To say that we should take him at his word seems ridiculous to me:  This is the man who said that Katherine Howard was a virgin and Anne of Cleves wasn’t.  Henry seems to have frequently said whatever needed to be said to get what he wanted.  From what I understand of Henry, he was less than pleasant to Jane after the honeymoon period was over until she managed to get pregnant.  I don’t think Jane’s death giving Henry an heir stirred any more love for her in his breast than he felt for her when she was alive.  He certainly tolerated her.   But just because he observed a somewhat proper period of mourning for her, does not necessarily mean that he loved her.  And just because he respected her “sacrifice” does not mean that he loved her (I respect a lot of people that I don’t want to marry).

Did he REALLY call her his true love, or merely his true wife?  I just contend that there’s a big difference between the two.

Well, I guess we’ll never know for sure. Unless we travel in a time machine and find out! 🙂

Yeah you are right there my freind.. But just think how cool it would be if we could actually travel back in time, and meeet Anne, and maybe even give Henry a few kicks up his royal backside, for being such a prat…


Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 4, 2012
11:28 am
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juliane
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Poor Henry’s tired mind.
Henry’s true love was in the mirror he consulted everyday. Anyway, he was so poisoned by his courtiers that he no longer heard himself.

April 4, 2012
7:51 pm
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Mya Elise
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Oh man, Jane? Um I think Henry was too blinded by joy and elation of finally getting his legitimate son. If Jane hadn’t of had that son then she would of been kicked to the curb like the others. I don’t hate Jane but it gets on my nerves when people say she was his true love because he deemed her so, they weren’t married long enough for him to start getting bored with her and trust me that would of happend. Henry was in love with himself for whatever reason but if your going to ask which of his wives he loved the most during their time together then it’s either Katherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn. He was with Katherine for years and even though he didn’t admit it in the end he DID love her at one time and he probably still had love for her when he wanted Anne because you can’t spend 20 some years together and not have some sort of love for them unless your utterly emotionless. Then there’s Anne, and boy he loved Anne whether it was obsessive or not. This is one of the most passionate couples i’ve ever heard of.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 4, 2012
11:36 pm
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Elliemarianna
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Henry never said she was his true love, only his true wife… there’s a big difference.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

April 5, 2012
9:52 am
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Sharon
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Elliemarianna said

Henry never said she was his true love, only his true wife… there’s a big difference.

Exactly. In Henry’s mind Jane was the only woman who did her job as his wife. She gave him a living son and a legitimate heir.

April 5, 2012
1:08 pm
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Maggyann
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Exactly. Henry paid out in titles and what have you for a son. Jane came through on that one. If she had a daughter instead or had lost the child/never got pregnant she wouldn’t have lasted long at all. If she had lived after having Edward I think she would have had a pretty miserable existence at court, wife and mother but not much else going for her. She certainly wouldn’t have kept Henry ‘warm’ for long I suspect.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

April 5, 2012
4:21 pm
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Mya Elise
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Sharon said

Elliemarianna said

Henry never said she was his true love, only his true wife… there’s a big difference.

Exactly. In Henry’s mind Jane was the only woman who did her job as his wife. She gave him a living son and a legitimate heir.

Oh crap! Sorry if I went on a crazy rant! Embarassed I got confused for a second, so erase eveything I said before. He probably called her his true wife cause she’s the only one who fufilled her promise of giving him a son but that’s it. Wow, i’m sorry guys I tend to do that alot – read one thing and get angry about it then realize I was wrong.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 6, 2012
6:34 am
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Boleyn
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This whole true love issue, hinges on one thing.. Jane did give him the son that Henry so desperately wanted, but what if Edward had died during his infancy? Would Henry still call Jane his true love? or would have mearly said the same about his marriage being cursed, because of… ?
What makes me laugh so much about him wanting to divorce KOA. is the fact that he waited so long to do it. It seems he was having doubts about the whole marriage with KOA, before the birth of Mary. Why didn’t he say something then?
I’ve watched the Tudors several times now, and in actual fact the whole divorce issue that they portray is actually very well. If you look at it.
Henry mananges to get a court hearing here and gets the Pope to send over Cardinal Campagio etc, then comes into the court declaring that he thinks his to KOA marriage is all wrong, 20 years from when it first took place? The evidence Henry presents to the court about Arthur and KOA is almost 30 years old and he expects to be taken seriously? Henry must have looked a right prat to the people.
Small wonder that KOA was so avidly defended by the people.
If that wasn’t bad enough he then uses the reverse excuse. (prior relationship with Mary Boleyn among other false charges) to get rid of Anne?
We know he had a relationship with Mary Boleyn, so I hope you can understand what i’m trying to say..
Then uses the same excuse again to get rid of AOC. (her proir contract Duke of Lorriane).
Small wonder Henry turned into a joke, and a very smelly one too.
I rather think Henry was slightly of his hinges when it came to love and marriage, and they certainly didn’t go together like a horse and carriage either..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 6, 2012
9:18 am
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Mya Elise
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Boleyn said

This whole true love issue, hinges on one thing.. Jane did give him the son that Henry so desperately wanted, but what if Edward had died during his infancy? Would Henry still call Jane his true love? or would have mearly said the same about his marriage being cursed, because of… ?
..

Good question! Never thought about that before, um well I think Henry had doubts when his son with Katherine that lived only 70? some days but he still tried with her and everything but I think if Edward had died then I think he’d be pissed. After everything he has to see another son die? Yeah, I think he’d flip out…

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 6, 2012
9:54 am
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Maggyann
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I don’t know if it is the ‘done thing’ on the board but I have been working today on part of my story which includes Jane. I wondered if it is allowed to post something like that. I just thought a) some of you might like to see Jane through Henry’s eyes as I imagine it to have been and b) it wouldn’t hurt to get some constructive criticism on my writing. My writing is the thing which keeps me grounded at the moment after my stroke and what have you so though I am enjoying it that doesn’t mean it is any good. I can take criticism though no problem.Laugh
I don’t know if that is acceptable or not also come to think of it I don’t know how I would post it anyway as it is going to be a bit longer than a post as it were.
If anyone has any ideas let me know. Of course if it is not done as this is after all a discussion board then that is fine. I was just wondering.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

April 6, 2012
10:20 am
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Sharon
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Maggyann said

I don’t know if it is the ‘done thing’ on the board but I have been working today on part of my story which includes Jane. I wondered if it is allowed to post something like that. I just thought a) some of you might like to see Jane through Henry’s eyes as I imagine it to have been and b) it wouldn’t hurt to get some constructive criticism on my writing. My writing is the thing which keeps me grounded at the moment after my stroke and what have you so though I am enjoying it that doesn’t mean it is any good. I can take criticism though no problem.Laugh
I don’t know if that is acceptable or not also come to think of it I don’t know how I would post it anyway as it is going to be a bit longer than a post as it were.
If anyone has any ideas let me know. Of course if it is not done as this is after all a discussion board then that is fine. I was just wondering.

Maggyann,
A few of the girls have posted stories in the “Off-Topic” section. I don’t know whether they checked with Claire first or not. Personally I’d love to read your story.
I’m sorry about your stroke. I knew you had been ill, but I missed what it was. Good to hear you are back to writing again.

April 6, 2012
11:06 am
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Janet
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Maggyann, I’d love to read your story as well. I hope you are able to post it.

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