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There's something about Katherine
February 8, 2014
8:35 pm
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Boleyn
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Yep and me. I think Cramner did all he could to save K.H. If K.H had said there had been a pre-contract with Dereham it may have saved her life but Dereham was a dead man, so she would have probably ended up in some convent somewhere.
I agree too that Cramner underestimated Henry’s anger, perhaps he had hoped that because the divorce between H8 and AOC had been done in a very amicable and freindly way, that H8 would handle the situation with K.H in the same way. Maybe Cranmer was thinking straight when he dropped the bombshell on H8 about K.H’s behaviour, acting in haste etc.
I think he was genuinely upset about K.H’s death and that he had been the one who had started the ball rolling for her march to the scaffold.

A lot of people high tailed it out of England after Eddy started to die, but I feel that he genuinely believed that Northumberlands plan to put LJG on the throne would succeed and because things happened so fast between LJG and Mary taking the throne he hadn’t got time to get out of England before Mary dropped on him like a tonne of bricks. The ports would have been one of the first things that would have been secured, to prevent anyone from entering or leaving England. Cramner certainly wouldn’t have been able to sail out for France or wherever from London, the only chance would be to get to Dover which is 76 miles away from London, which would take at least 5 days ride maybe even more to get to. Plus the country was in apsolute chaos and I would say the chances of Cramner even making it to Dover safely would be very slim if not impossible, and if he did make it the chances of finding a ship (even a packet ship) to take him across the sea to wherever would again very slim if not impossible.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 9, 2014
8:53 pm
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Barnettbuff
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Boleyn said

I’ve found some very bizzarre ideas to do with birth control. whether they worked is a matter of speculation.
• A sponge soaked in lemon juice and inserted into the vagina.
A pessary made of nettle leaves .
The woman must drink sheep urine or rabbit blood.
A numbing genital bath of either cold water or a mixture of ginger and vinegar.
The woman must wear weasel testicles on her thigh or the amputated foot of a live weasel around her neck.
Women of the time still used a number of birth control measures such as coitus interruptus, inserting lily root and rue into the vagina.
Emetics and diuretics, which reduced the desire for sex or simply made it impossible
Weird.
In Suzzanne Dunn’s book Katherine Howard(fiction) she mentions about a half a lemon. Ie inserting half a lemon into her vagina so that she could have sex without fear of pregnancy. I remember many years ago I really can’t remember what book it was but it was a book about K.H again fictional, but the Duchess had inserted a stone into K.H vagina, which she personally removed when she married Lard arse.
I know that half an orange was allegdely used as a rudimentary form of what we now know to be used as a cap.

Thanks a lot! I will NEVER get some of those images outta my HEAD!!!!Yell

February 10, 2014
4:37 am
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Boleyn
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LOL Larry. Best I not tell you about the even weirder ideas that history has concerning fertitlity advice then, or your mind will go pop altogether.
Lets just say they were weird with a capital WE.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 10, 2014
7:12 pm
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Barnettbuff
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Lorna — “Blood letting” is as far (if not too far) as I want to go in learning about ancient medical procedures!!

February 10, 2014
7:49 pm
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Boleyn
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I had a feeling you were going to say that Larry LOL. Mind you in my opinion the medical treatment of times past are barbaric to the max. But strangely enough some of the looney tune Ideas actually may have worked.
Certainly some herbal concoctions were proven to have worked. But personally I think that many of them were just a placebo. If you give someone a vile concoction which so awful just to look at it was enough to turn your stomach, and was told that it would cure your toothache, you would bolt it down your throat and then believe that your toothache was cured. When in affect it was still there but you had simply stopped thinking about it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 11, 2014
12:31 am
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Barnettbuff
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Oh yes, science and medicine have made wonderfully great strides in the last 150 years; but sometimes it seems there are still missing remedies with some doctors. I can go to my doctor complaining of a bad back and all I get is some ‘muscle relaxers’. I want ‘hands-on’ examinations to find out where my problem is and how to get it repaired! But, that never happens!
Of course, with my present condition, they all just look at me and declare; “You’re just damn lucky to even be here!” I had quite a problem 8 years ago, starting with pancreatitis in Nov, 2005;at age 63, 2 major surgeries,
5 week coma, on TPN for over 4 months, lost from 235 lbs. down to 165 lb during that time, I also had double pneumonia, a trachea, was on life support, could not even sit up in bed alone, came home in wheel chair for 4 months, then a walker for almost 5 months, then a walking cane for the rest of the year; was in rehab for 10 months; and then………I was left with horrible surgical hernias which no doctor will touch! I look 9 months pregnant! Only thing, this damn baby is OVER SIX YEARS OLD!!!Yell I need a wheel barrow to push this thing around.Laugh
Wow, Lorna, didn’t mean to write a phreaking BOOK! Sorry, I should be giving Doctors an A+ with the work they did keeping me alive.

February 11, 2014
8:52 am
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Boleyn
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Don’t worry about it Larry. There is an old saying which my mother used to use a lot. “Whatever doesn’t kill you can only make you stronger” I guess it means somthing like you are a survivor. You have certainly been put through the wringer, but the result is that you came through it, and overcame the difficulties, and although the hernia (baby) is a major iritation, you are still here to tell your story.

It was down to the skill of the doctors, and my stubborn determination and strength of will, that I too am a survivor.
When I was 19. I had a serious motorcyle accident. Apart the car ploughing into me which completely shattered my right leg, I was catapulted over the car and flew (without a safety harness or parashute) 80 yards downn the road, before hitting the kerb, and breaking 2 vertabrea in y spine and my pelvis.
I suppose I should be thankfully that I was knocked unconcious too and came round just as the Ambulance pulled up. I don’t really remember much about what happened next, but I did remeber the Ambulance man say to the driver “I think we had better hurry, because I don’t thinks she’s going to make it.” The police officer who attended the scene gave us a police escort to the hospital. By the time I got there I was drifing in and out of conciousness, all I wanted to do was sleep. What I didn’t know was that the bones in my right leg and cut through a blood vessel and through the skin and that I had lost about 7 pints of blood, emergency transfusion and total panic as you can imagine.
I was in the operating theatre for 6 hours and had a further 12 pints of blood during the operation. I was in a coma for nearly 5 days, and then began the stubborn bit. The doctor told me that I would never walk again, and would certainly never have children. I thought when he said it “That what you think matey”
It took me 2 years to do it, but I did and can walk and had 2 beautiful children too. After the birth of my son, who is 21 this year I started to get problems with my spine, and the MRI showed that basically it’s knackered, I was told that I would be in a wheelchair by the time I was 35. Yeah right I’m 48 and I’m not going to give in. I can still walk, granted I have to use a stick and on the odd occation crutches when the pain is really bad. But I refuse point blank to let it beat me. I am a suvivor.

I agree medical science had certainly sky rocketed in the last 100 years or so, it seems as if everything and anything is possible now. I suppose in may ways we should be thankfully to the looney tune quacks in ages past, as their pills, plasters and evil smelling (no I’m not talking about H8) and tasting and health giving remedies showed the modern day doctors the way to get to where we have now medically.
If you could go back in time to H8 time there would have been all likelyhood that all of K.O.A’s babies might have survived. J.S and K.P would have survived. Mary Tulip may have been able to get pregnant by I.V F, as could K.H. The possibilites concerning medical advances these day are limitless. Just think when we have gone the way of the dodo, the fantasy operations that happen in Star trek and many sci fi films would be just a matter of routine, to modern day surgeons of that time. They would look back at what our Doctors/Surgeons and consultants, will say “Good Gawd how the hell did these people ever live. Their medical science or experties was complete and utter Bullplop.”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 11, 2014
2:08 pm
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Barnettbuff
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O M Z ! Lorna, YOU ARE a survivor! You know, …..no matter how bad one thinks they are, how bad their health/situation is, … there’s always someone, somewhere who has had it worse. I know I’m lucky, and I have never given anyone, doctors, nurses, care givers, and especially my wife, a hard time during this episode of my life. I took the attitude,– “It is what it is!” plain and simple, no ones fault. I had 62 good years — 62 years that many people have never been able to experience, so, why should I complain?
You seem to have had a horrific experience in your life, and I dare say you are handling it in a very acceptable way. I know this is not the space for venting, and/or getting too personal in our posts, but sometimes it just helps to be able to express some of our deeper feelings about out experiences in our lives. Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed you sharing your story with us.

February 12, 2014
9:20 pm
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tudor fan
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Hey I was just thinking about Katherine and Henry We’ll I just wondered if maybe he married her to be close to Anne again They were first cousins after all and she was said to have a look of her What do you guys think Thanks x

February 12, 2014
10:19 pm
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Boleyn
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It’s possible I suppose. Perhaps he was trying to regain the golden years, when he was a golden Sod I mean God in a golden court and saw K.H as a way of doing it.
She is supposed to have had A.B’s vitality and vibrance but didn’t have A.B’s wit, learning or sharp tongue. I guess he hoped that he could mould K.H into what he wanted in a wife. An A.B look alike but perhaps a C.O.A or J.S docility. Someone who was perfectly happy to put up with his shit and temper tantrums as long as she kept her gob shut.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 13, 2014
12:51 am
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Anyanka
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KH played on her strengths..her willingness to please, her prettyness and her youth. Added to that was her skill in handling a pre-marriage Henry in the same way both her cousins, Anne and Jane did in insisting on a ring before paying out her favours.

I have always got the impression that KH was happy while Henry was giving her material things rather like a child in a sweet shop. She was certainly upset when Henry withdrew from the court in late 1540/early 1541. Whether that was due to her concern over Henry or there was some other reason, I don’t know.

KH was certainly prepared to act as the joyous consort as well as the pious consort and the favour-seeking consort in asking for several prisoners to be released or treated more kindly.

HAd the events of her youth not come crashing down on her and her cohorts, I think she would have made a good ueen consort. She was willing and able to work with both Anne of Cleves and Archbishop Cramner. She quickly made up to the Lady Mary after having 2 of Mary’s maids dismisssed and she seemed to be fond of the Lady Elizabeth. I’m certain that she could have had several children by “Henry” to aid his alliances. Had that happened, Mary could have ended up happily married with children of her own.

Whether KH would have been appointed regent for Edward is a matter for conjuncture, though it’s possible that Henry may well have treid to diet and exercise more in order to keep p with his wife which may have prolonged his life to see Edward become a man withot need for a regency concil.

It's always bunnies.

February 13, 2014
1:53 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree Anyanka. I do feel that K.H had the atributes of being a good Queen, and perhaps if she had been just that little bit older, when H8 cast his beady eyes on her, she would have perhaps had the maturity to have dealt with the whole court situation better. I don’t think she was in anyway spiteful or malicious, I think she was actually very gentle and loving and certainly showed a great deal of compassion to others less fortunate than herself. Certainly her kindness towards Margaret Pole shows that, I’m not certain but I believe she pleaded with H8 to spare her life, due to her age, but H8 refused to listen.
When H8 was ill in 40/41 she probably did feel that she had done something to anger him. Maybe that why she turned to Culpepper to ask his advice on how to make ammends for what she felt she might have done wrong. After all Culpepper would have known H8 inside out and upside down so therefore it would have stood to reason, that Culpepper would have known the likes and dislikes of H8 too, and advices K.H on how to make H8 happy.
She made mistakes like all teens do, none of us are infallible and I dare say we’ve all done things we regret. But she simply didn’t have the maturity to handle the situation she found herself in. She was really just a little girl in a big world, but that doesn’t mean she was stupid, far from it, her education wasn’t as advanced as K.O.A, or A.B’s but she did have a basic understanding of reding and writing. I would say (purely and opinin) that her education was perhaps along the same lines of that as J.S, enough to get by but not too much for her to start acting out of her given station in life, I hope that makes sence. In a world when woman were subserviant in the male dominated sociaty it really wasn’t considered the norm to have big ideas of your own.

I actually find that a very strange thing to say. Because if you lok at it. K.O.A was in my opinion far more superior in intelligence than H8 was, she stood her ground when H8 wanted to divorce her and as a result earned the respect and admiration of the people. Henry’s answer to that was to change the face of England forever which IMO was a cowardly act of temper on H8’s part, he wanted his own way and he wouldn’t see reason. I don’t believe Anne was solely responsible for H8 destroying the church, but she may have said “it doesn’t have to be like this, here read this book” H8 was the one who pulled apart England and he was the one who had to live with it.H8 turned the world upside down to get back at K.O.A and then turned it inside to get rid of A.B. H8 was a hypocrite a liar and a murderer, as well as a stinky fat old git.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 13, 2014
3:02 pm
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Barnettbuff
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Laugh Lorna, why don’t you stop ‘beating around the bush’ and tell us what you REALLY think about the ole boy!LaughLaughLaugh

April 18, 2014
6:46 pm
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Boleyn
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One of things that I really don’t undestand when it comes to K.H and her downfall is that why was Dereham’s servant/dog’s body/ bat-man or whatever he was, tortured? I believe (His name escapes me for the moment) he had all his teeth and fingernails pulled out in front of Dereham. I am unsure as well as to his fate, after such treatment. Did he go to the scaffold with his freind/master or did he go free? and why even torture him at all, was it just to get him to confirm what they already believed, when Mary Lasselles dropped the big S****y brick?
Hadn’t that evidence already been proved as K.H servants rolled over quickly enough to say what happened in the Duchess’s household. Fear can be a powerful weapon.. If you were told you were going to die if you didn’t cough up, you would cough up and hope that it would save your life, and I think this is what happened here. Joan Bulmer and the others were afraid their first reaction was to save themselves and if that meant sacrificing another’s life (I.e K.H.) to save your own then so be it.
K.H was another one of Lard arse’s victims, and she didn’t deserve to die.

Larry do you really want to hear my opinion of the big, fat, stinking, wife murdering, useless, cowardly, hypocritical, lying, slimy, mysodynistic, whining, cheating, poor bleeding martyr, sad act sack of crap? I think that just about covers it.. I sure I will think of some more choice words to decribe lard arse in due time.

Dereham’s friend was called Davenport the name came to me in the middle of the night. Dinosaur thought I had finally gone mad (News for him I’m there already. Well you don’t have to be mad to live here with a Dinosaur but it sure as hell helps) when I suddenly sat up in bed and said out loud “Davenport that was his name” He’s used to my little eccentricities by now.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 21, 2014
9:01 pm
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Barnettbuff
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OH……………….you have such a WAY WITH WORDS…..such as they are!!!!! On the subject of Katherine,…I’m listening to a book about another Katherine, “Katherine Swynford” by Anya Seton, written several years ago; however, since she is most likely in my acestorial line, it is of great interest to me. I’ve enjoyed “driving around” the community in Lincolnshire, around Kettlethrope. Smile

April 22, 2014
12:44 am
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Boleyn
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Barnettbuff said

OH……………….you have such a WAY WITH WORDS…..such as they are!!!!! On the subject of Katherine,…I’m listening to a book about another Katherine, “Katherine Swynford” by Anya Seton, written several years ago; however, since she is most likely in my acestorial line, it is of great interest to me. I’ve enjoyed “driving around” the community in Lincolnshire, around Kettlethrope. Smile

That’s a good book Larry I read it some years back. John of Guant’s daughter Catherine, by Contance of Castille was great aunt I believe to Katherine of Aragon.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 22, 2014
4:27 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Barnettbuff said

OH……………….you have such a WAY WITH WORDS…..such as they are!!!!! On the subject of Katherine,…I’m listening to a book about another Katherine, “Katherine Swynford” by Anya Seton, written several years ago; however, since she is most likely in my acestorial line, it is of great interest to me. I’ve enjoyed “driving around” the community in Lincolnshire, around Kettlethrope. Smile

That’s a good book Larry I read it some years back. John of Guant’s daughter Catherine, by Contance of Castille was great aunt I believe to Katherine of Aragon.

Catherine daughter of John and Constance was the grand-mother of Isabella of Castile making her the great-grand-mother of KoA.

It's always bunnies.

April 22, 2014
9:50 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka. I knew K.O.A was a great something to Constance and John.
Makes me laugh about John of Gaunt, he was determined to have power for himself one way or another, and although he didn’t get a shot to sit on the big chair and wear the sparkly tin hat his decendants from all 3 marriages did. Whether it was in good old blighty or abroad somewhere. The closest he got to sitting on the big chair wearing a sparkly tin hat was when he went into bat (and I don’t mean cricket) for his wife Contance when she made a play for the throne of Castille. They say that all is fair in love and war. He didn’t win the battle for Constance but he did win the war when his daughter Catherine married Henry of Castille.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 23, 2014
8:34 pm
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Sharon
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Larry that is one of my favorite books. I have read it several times over the years.

April 27, 2014
10:54 pm
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Boleyn
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It was said that when Henry Turnip found out that K.H had betrayed him (if you can call it that) he was tempted to run her through himself with his own sword. What would have happened if he had gone to her room and killed her?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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