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There's something about Katherine
February 5, 2014
11:12 pm
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Sharon
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I don’t think it was spite on Mary’s part. Mary was asked by her brother John why she didn’t ask for a position in Queen Katherine’s household. Mary then told her brother that Katherine hadn’t lived a pure and righteous life. She explained what she had seen at Lambeth. John was at court as a member of the king’s privy chamber.
John was an ardent reformer. He had told his fellow reformers that Norfolk and Bishop Gardiner stood in the way of further reform. So after hearing Mary’s tale, he told Cranmer. He thought the story would destroy the Howard/Catholic faction for good. He must have been disappointed when Howard came out of that mess smelling like a rose.
John Lascelles was burned as a heretic in 1546 along with Anne Askew and a couple others.

February 6, 2014
10:54 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Sharon. I knew Duke Poppingjay would have have been in there somewhere. The odious little cretin, he’s another oe who I would like to kick right in the face, I think it’s his face…..Oh no sorry that’s wrong it’s a kick in the balls, and the cricket bat is for his face..;) all the rain must have rusted up the inside of my nut, or the hamster working the controls has died.

I do feel though that there was possibly a little bit of spite in M.L claims, I also feel that she may have dressed things up and made out that K.H was worse than she actually was. K.H as we know certainly acted in a very inappropiate manner, but then don’t all kids screw up especially teenagers.

I also feel that M.L shares some of the guilt concerning the behaviour that went on in the Duchess’s household. I believe she did tell the Duchess what was going on once or twice and the Duchess did once or twice deal with the issue, but as it continued to happen, why didn’t M.L carry on reporting it. I believe after the Duchess found out or was told about the bedtime stories that Dereham and his freinds were telling K.H and locked the door of their chamber every night, the key suddenly disappeared, and the bedtime stories from Dereham and his pals started up again. I think (although it’s just a thought) that M.L was the one who stole the key, and gave it to K.H or Dereham. M.L spent most if not all of her time with the Duchess and had plenty of time to tell her what was going on. Why didn’t she?
Another thing that completely foxes me is that none of K.H’s freinds (apart from being kicked out from court) were executed or suffered in any way when K.H, J.B, Dereham and Culpepper were railroaded on to the scaffold. K.H’s freinds were as guilty as she was.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 6, 2014
2:38 pm
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Shae
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There is also every likelihood that after Mary told him, John reported it to Cranmer just to avoid being charged for misprision of treason should her past be discovered by someone else. We don’t know the motives at all. To be honest, however, I think it’s likely that John probably did intend to bring down the Catholic Howard faction by tattling on Katherine. He enjoyed a nice barbecue some years later however, so there’s karma for you.

Mary, however, perhaps didn’t operate based on her interest in the reformation – after all, she didn’t go out of her way to act upon what she knew. John only found out because he tried to encourage his sister to ask for a job in the Queen’s service. Mary doesn’t seem to have had any particular motive: she just didn’t approve of what had gone down at the Duchess’ household (though this is odd for Katherine certainly wasn’t alone in having sexual relationships – after all, before Dereham showed any interest in her, he was occupied with Joan Bulmer.) She did scold Manox, after all.

And as for Katherine’s ‘friends’ – if we’re calling them such, they’ve never struck me as being particularly close to Katherine, personally – they did nothing to warrant execution. I don’t understand how they could be conceived as guilty ‘as she was’. Katherine was effectively damaged goods, who had almost tainted the royal succession through an affair which could have brough an illegitimate child of Culpepers (or Derehams, as the investigation first assumed) into the succession. Jane Rochford guilty for assisting (and possibly initiating) the affair. Culpeper for committing adultery with the Queen. Dereham for tainting Katherine and for holding her to a precontract which she broke, and for thought of intent to do harm unto the King (by which he simply mentioned his death, but that counted.)

If Manox, who did some seriously dodgy heavy petting with Katherine, could get away with his head intact, then I hardly see why her friends should not have survived, too. What did they do wrong?

No Other Will But Hers

February 6, 2014
5:12 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree Shae, about the “Freinds” bit with K.H. They weren’t really what you call freinds and it wa probably the Howard name that they were freindly with than the person who had it.
The reason to why I believe that K.H’s “freinds” were as guilty as K.H was because they too know of the situation between K.H and Dereham and yet didn’t say anything about it, to anyone.
Mannox had left the Duchess’s household or had been dismissed by the Duchess some time before and had already said that no sexual activity had occured between them something which I believe M.L had backed up. He had actually married K.H’s stepmother.
Dereham on the other hand was a slightly bigger fish. H8 didn’t usually bother with tiddlers,(Mannox) he would generally throw them back and hope that they would in turn catch a slightly bigger fish (Dereham) and then throw them back to catch a Big fish/Cod/Sharks (Duke Poppingjay and his minions (Sharks) Culpepper (Cod) and the Queen (Big fish)

Because what happened or didn’t happen with K.H and Mannox when K.H was perhaps only about 11 or 12 at the time perhaps her youth excused her of blame and Mannox was seen as a pervert. Although that is putting a 21st century feeling on it. 16th century speak would be that as young as she was 12 was perfecctly ok for sexual congress as it wasn’t uncommon for a girl to have her first child when she was 13/14 years of age. However in this case, K.H and Mannox did not have sexual congress but mearly induldged in fumbling/touching and kissing each other. Purely my opinion of course.
Yeah I must admit J.L did have a lovely day out didn’t he,, I heard that when he was asked “how do you want your steak done?” he answered “well done” It appeared that he thought Gardiner was offering something to eat. Either way Gardiner was a lousy cook and burnt it and J.L.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 6, 2014
9:58 pm
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TudorFan
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I’m reading Leanda de Lisle’s Tudor at the moment, and have just happened this evening to get up to Katherine Howard’s fall. To my surprise, she doesn’t mention any of the Lascelles. Any thoughts?

February 7, 2014
12:12 am
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Boleyn
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It could well be that as the Lassells were such minor players in the whole sorry saga of K.H that she didn’t feel they were worth mentioning. But there again why didn’t she mention them when their evidence was the bombshell that ignited the who keg of gunpowder that was going on in court at that moment with K.H and Culpepper. If M.L had said nothing I doubt K.H’s past would have come out so soon. I think K.H’s past would have come out eventually, but if she had had a child by H8 especially if that child was a boy, he would have perhaps gone all out to protect K.H instead of chopping her up. It’s a difficult one to call really. H8’s mind like his body was a stinking mess.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 7, 2014
11:09 am
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TudorFan
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I can’t remember for sure (even though I read it just yesterday!) who de Lisle said was the informant. I think she implied was the Duchess of Norfolk herself. I’ll re-read the last few pages. She doesn’t go into great detail about it unfortunately.

February 7, 2014
11:53 am
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Olga
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De Lisle speculated that Cranmer actually went along with it because if Katherone was removed then the Howard, and therefore Catholic influnce, would be removed.
I have yet to decide what I think about that, although it did just about make me spit out my coffee.

February 7, 2014
1:39 pm
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TudorFan
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TudorFan said

I can’t remember for sure (even though I read it just yesterday!) who de Lisle said was the informant. I think she implied was the Duchess of Norfolk herself. I’ll re-read the last few pages. She doesn’t go into great detail about it unfortunately.

Found it. Page 223.

“Cranmer’s source was a former servant of Katherine Howard’s grandmother, Agnes, the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk.” So not the Duchess herself, as I’d recalled incorrectly, but a servant. Mary Lascelles (confused as to spelling!) or her brother John, then, presumably?

February 7, 2014
2:09 pm
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Olga
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My sister has borrowed my Starkey Cry From what I remember John wrote Cranmer a letter after Mary told him about it, which I think someone mentioned earlier.

February 7, 2014
2:14 pm
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Boleyn
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De lisle does make a valid arguement concerning Cramner though (Don’t choke on your coffee Olga please). If the Catholic faction i.e Duke Poppingjay and his minions succeeded in their plot to use K.H as sprat to catch the mackerel and K.H succeeded in producing an spare heir or 2, then although Eddy’s birth was still important with 2 Howard brothers and the chance to become Kings themselves. The Howard’s power would have increased even beyong H8’s wildest dreams. Cramner was afraid for his own life and position (and quite rightly so) that if H8 became too involved with the Howard faction, then Cramner could be ousted from court and having any form of influence of the religion of the country in the future, and would have most likely been burnt as soon a K.H had produced the spare heir. H8 still considered himself as Catholic and followed I believe some of the Catholic forms of worship. I think that H8 had to curtail some of Cramner’s ideas for changing the church to what he (Cramner) wanted it to be on quite a few occations. So when the Lasselles came to him with their tales of sordid sex scandal he must have felt like all his Christmas’s and birthday’s had come at once. This oppotunity to destroy the whole Howard/Catholic faction once and for all was just too good to be missed, so Cramner made the most of it. Get rid of the Howards/Catholics and Queen and his position at court was safe, he would have to wait until old Lardarse croaked before he could really go to town when it came to matters of religion, but he was happy to wait.
Little Eddy could in the meantime be guided towards what Cramner wanted religion wise, without H8 knowing.
The reason I say this is because I believe that the England that Eddy/Cramner had planned to built would have been very different to what H8 believed and even perhaps what Elizabeth had planned. Mary we all know had but one purpose in her reign Rome, and Catholism.
I’m not sure but I believe the Coronation Oath that Eddy swore was radically different to what H8’s and Elizabeth’s was, and I don’t think our modern day monarchy is quite the same as it was back then either, or doesn’t appear to have any simularity to what Eddy’s oath was.
Cramner as it turned out was right to be afraid of the Catholic faction as Mary’s venom towards him was certainly a bitter pill to swallow.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 7, 2014
2:42 pm
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Off topic, but David Starkey was on Question Time last night. Gulp. He certainly had his dander up.

February 7, 2014
9:46 pm
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Olga
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Boleyn said

De lisle does make a valid arguement concerning Cramner though (Don’t choke on your coffee Olga please).

But it’s 9 a.m, and I am having coffee Frown

February 7, 2014
9:51 pm
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Olga
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I have a very difficult time believing that Cranmer was willing to cost a young girl her life. I could be wrong, Cranmer is someone I haven’t read very much about.

February 7, 2014
10:35 pm
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Anyanka
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Shae said

If Manox, who did some seriously dodgy heavy petting with Katherine, could get away with his head intact, then I hardly see why her friends should not have survived, too. What did they do wrong?

Manox had married and never seeked out KH for a position in her household.Those were probably enough to ensure that Henry’s wrath wasn’t vented on him.

Her friends were guilty of knowing her past and possibly not telling any-one that there was possibly some dodgy behaviour going on around KH and JAne B.

It's always bunnies.

February 7, 2014
10:51 pm
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Anyanka
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Olga said

I have a very difficult time believing that Cranmer was willing to cost a young girl her life. I could be wrong, Cranmer is someone I haven’t read very much about.

I feel that way as well. Cramner certainly tried to get her to admit to a pre-contract with Dereham which could have saved her life While I’m sure that getting rid of the Catholic faction was part of his reason for “telling” Henry, I don’t think he could have imagined just how vengeful Henry was going to become.

It's always bunnies.

February 7, 2014
10:53 pm
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Anyanka
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TudorFan said

Off topic, but David Starkey was on Question Time last night. Gulp. He certainly had his dander up.

WHo pee-d in his cornflakes this time???

It's always bunnies.

February 7, 2014
10:59 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said
. This oppotunity to destroy the whole Howard/Catholic faction once and for all was just too good to be missed, so Cramner made the most of it. Get rid of the Howards/Catholics and Queen and his position at court was safe, he would have to wait until old Lardarse croaked before he could really go to town when it came to matters of religion, but he was happy to wait.

Henry played a rather unpleasant game with Cramner by allowing Gardiner to investigate Cramner’s religious views while Henry was married to KP.

Cramner as it turned out was right to be afraid of the Catholic faction as Mary’s venom towards him was certainly a bitter pill to swallow.

Mary’s vemon was highly personal rather than purely religious. Cramner was after all the man who declared her parent’s marriaage null and void and Mary herself a bastard. Mary would never have allowed him to live for doing that.

It's always bunnies.

February 7, 2014
11:41 pm
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Boleyn
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Agreed Anyanka, Mary had been out to get Cramner the minute he declared her mum and dad’s marriage illegal. She was just biding her time. Cramner knew his goose was well and truly cooked when Eddy started to sicken and die. I knew he recanted during Mary’s reign but he could have recanted 100 times and even run throught streets with a pink balloon tied to his meat and 2 veg, wearing a placard around his neck saying ich bin ein berliner (I am a doughnut). Or had gone to the Pope and hung from the roof of the Vatican by one leg naked with his bottom painted blue wearing a pink wig with leek up his backside sideways and recanted in front of the whole kit and caboodle of the Pope and his little mice, nothing would have changed Mary’s mind. Cramner was dead end of story.

I think H8 liked to play power games towards the end of his life and simply played Gardiner and Cramner off against each other, he wanted Cramner to remember who actually wore the trousers to do with church matters. Gardiner on the other hand over played his hand and H8 thinking that he could make descions conceerning the matters of religion. H8 had to make sure he got the message that he was the boss and chucked Gardiner in the Tower. Cramner used to push his luck somewhat but at least he knew when to back off. Gardiner didn’t/couldn’t or wouldn’t recognise that H8 was losing paitence with him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 8, 2014
7:06 pm
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Sharon
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Anyanka said

Olga said

I have a very difficult time believing that Cranmer was willing to cost a young girl her life. I could be wrong, Cranmer is someone I haven’t read very much about.

I feel that way as well. Cramner certainly tried to get her to admit to a pre-contract with Dereham which could have saved her life While I’m sure that getting rid of the Catholic faction was part of his reason for “telling” Henry, I don’t think he could have imagined just how vengeful Henry was going to become.

Add me to this list of those who don’t believe Cranmer was willing for Katherine to lose her head. Although Cranmer should have realized what Henry’s vengeance would be like. He had seen it before.
He did try to save Katherine by getting her to admit to the precontract. Starkey doesn’t think that Cranmer was rubbing his hands together in glee when this happened. He says Cranmer got along well with her. However, she was indifferent to reform measures, and Cranmer thought there was a possibility that she would side with Howard and Gardiner. Reluctantly and with regret he decided she should go.—-Starkey page 668—“But, as so often in his career, he did not let regrets get in the way of stern necessity.”
Cranmer should have left England when Edward was so ill. He certainly underestimated Mary’s desire for vengeance.
What was bugging Starkey this time?

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