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There's something about Katherine
January 20, 2014
4:15 pm
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Boleyn
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I’ve found some very bizzarre ideas to do with birth control. whether they worked is a matter of speculation.
• A sponge soaked in lemon juice and inserted into the vagina.
A pessary made of nettle leaves .
The woman must drink sheep urine or rabbit blood.
A numbing genital bath of either cold water or a mixture of ginger and vinegar.
The woman must wear weasel testicles on her thigh or the amputated foot of a live weasel around her neck.
Women of the time still used a number of birth control measures such as coitus interruptus, inserting lily root and rue into the vagina.
Emetics and diuretics, which reduced the desire for sex or simply made it impossible
Weird.
In Suzzanne Dunn’s book Katherine Howard(fiction) she mentions about a half a lemon. Ie inserting half a lemon into her vagina so that she could have sex without fear of pregnancy. I remember many years ago I really can’t remember what book it was but it was a book about K.H again fictional, but the Duchess had inserted a stone into K.H vagina, which she personally removed when she married Lard arse.
I know that half an orange was allegdely used as a rudimentary form of what we now know to be used as a cap.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 20, 2014
4:25 pm
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Anyanka
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IIRC, there was the Spanish Glove an early form of condom and types of a vaginal sponge using materials like wool.

KH shared a dormitory with many women, married and unmarried. There would have been a lot of Old Wives Tales passed around about sexual health as well as rudimentry birth control.

eta..shpould have read the second page before I replied…

It's always bunnies.

January 20, 2014
5:50 pm
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Boleyn
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I believe Sheep’s intestine was also used as a type of condom..
In >K.H’s case it’s difficult to know if she was using rudimentary birth control or not. I’m inclined that Lardarse was firing blanks, but I also feel tha K.H may have had gyno problems as well. As from what we know her affair with Dereham was of a very torrid nature and they had sex on many occations, and yet there was no hint of pregnancy or miscarriage, as I’ve already mentioned.
Slightly off topic but still reletive to what we are talking about.. Henry 2nd of France and Cathy de Medici, had a few problems in that ara, she had been married to him for 12 years I believe and yet there was no hint of a baby. Their doctor soon spotted what the problem was, however he noted there was a slight difference in their sexual organs, and suggested they try a different position to solve this. Whatever he suggested worked because within weeks Cathy was pregnant, and had no trouble conceiving afterwards. It could well be that if K.H and Lardarse had tried a different position other than missionary she might have got pregnant, may have taken some time if Lardarse was nearly out of Ammo. I think Missionary position was the accepted norm because it was considered decent.
It was only whores or commoners that had sex in different positions if that makes sence.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 21, 2014
2:59 pm
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Louise
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Boleyn said

I’ve found some very bizzarre ideas to do with birth control. whether they worked is a matter of speculation.
• A sponge soaked in lemon juice and inserted into the vagina.
A pessary made of nettle leaves .
The woman must drink sheep urine or rabbit blood.
A numbing genital bath of either cold water or a mixture of ginger and vinegar.
The woman must wear weasel testicles on her thigh or the amputated foot of a live weasel around her neck.
Women of the time still used a number of birth control measures such as coitus interruptus, inserting lily root and rue into the vagina.
Emetics and diuretics, which reduced the desire for sex or simply made it impossible
Weird.
In Suzzanne Dunn’s book Katherine Howard(fiction) she mentions about a half a lemon. Ie inserting half a lemon into her vagina so that she could have sex without fear of pregnancy. I remember many years ago I really can’t remember what book it was but it was a book about K.H again fictional, but the Duchess had inserted a stone into K.H vagina, which she personally removed when she married Lard arse.
I know that half an orange was allegdely used as a rudimentary form of what we now know to be used as a cap.

I’m sure all of these methods would work splendidly. Not by preventing pregnancy, but by putting you off sex in the first place. I would imagine there’s nothing like a lemon soaked sponge up your nethers to put you off sex for life. gSurprised

January 21, 2014
3:36 pm
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Boleyn
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The lemon soaked sponge may have worked, as lemon juice itself is an acid and would possibly kill off the sperm. I certainly wouldn’t want to try it though even if it was to prove if it worked or not.

One of the weirder birth control methods I read was one that was used in ancient Greece was that a woman sneezed when the man ejectulated, and after he had pulled out she sat up, bent her knees up to her chest and sneezed again, this was meant to expel the semen from her vagina. If this actually worked I don’t know.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 22, 2014
12:43 am
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Anyanka
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In theory, it would expell some of the semen.Like pee-ing after intercourse is supposed to prevent pregnancy in the same way.

But you only need of those persistant little sperms to beat the oods.

re lemon juice..this New Scientist article is good(http://www.newscientist.com/ar…..t8WpLT8XDc)

most of the other stuff I googled was …er….ermm….dodgy WRT the science of birth control and tended towards natural=good…

It's always bunnies.

January 29, 2014
6:44 pm
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Boleyn
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TudorFan said

Another thing that has always struck me as odd … I am under the impression (correct me if I’m wrong) that Henry was usually attracted to mature women. Why did he suddenly fall for such a young girl as Katherine Howard?</blockquote

I’m not entirely sure that Lardarse was solely attracted to older woman, but I can understand where this idea comes from, as K.O.A was 6 years older than him when they married.
If you look at Lardarse’s mistresses, Mary Boleyn, Bessie Blount and Anne (Duke of Buckingham’s daughter) they were younger than him. Bessie Blount was alledgely only 13 or 14 when she became his mistress.
K.O.A was as far as I can tell the only older woman in his love life, so to speak.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 1, 2014
10:28 pm
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It wasn’t so much his women being older than him that I was getting at, more that they were … women … as opposed to girls. Although I didn’t know Bessie Blount was so young. I have always thought that Katherine Howard was only 14 or so when she attracted his attention, but there again I’ve also read that she was around 19. Is there some confusion or doubt about her date of birth?

February 2, 2014
11:44 am
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Boleyn
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K.H’s DOB has always been a bit of a mystery, some scholars say she was born in 1520 whilst others say 1525. I’m inclined to think she was born around 1523 making her 17 when she married Lardarse.
I actually wonder how she got on with her stepchildren, not so much Elizabeth and Edward as they were just children themselves, but more so with Mary who was in well into her 20’s when H8 plonked K.H before Mary and told her to call her “Mummy”.
I should imagine that Mary would have been respectful but not exactly freindly. She probably felt a little embarrassed, having a stepmother who was just a few years younger than her, but there again AOC wasn’t that much older than Mary when, she married Lardarse. However AOC did at least conduct herself with quiet dignity and respect.
K.H in my opinion was a fun loving free spirit who didn’t always think before rushing head long into a burning building. She was thrown into the wolf pit by ambitious men who hoped that they could control Lardarse through her. Had they taken their time to get to know K.H they would have perhaps seen that she was completely unsuitable for a life at court. She would have been better perhaps as a mistress to Lardarse rather than a wife, at least the poor girl wouldn’t have lost her head.
Of all of H8 wifes K.H must be one of the most tragic, murdered by a fat jealous stinking old man who could accept that he wasn’t the young virile golden Sod of his youth that he thought he was.
K.H was just an immature kid who didn’t always listen to reason and made mistakes, but what can you expect from a teenager. But she had a good heart and meant well even if she went about things in the wrong way. But she didn’t deserve to die. Her only crime was being too young and naive to cope in a court filled with wolves and vampires only to willing to devour anyone who shows any form of weakness. She didn’t know how to cope with court life and ultimetily that led to her downfall for she fell back on the only thing that did work for her. The relaxed and very destructive household that she had in the duchess’s.
I blame the Duchess for most of K.H problems, to me at least it seems as if she didn’t care what the girls got up to just as long as they didn’t hassle her. She didn’t do enough in short.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 3, 2014
5:10 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

K.H’s DOB has always been a bit of a mystery, some scholars say she was born in 1520 whilst others say 1525. I’m inclined to think she was born around 1523 making her 17 when she married Lardarse.
I actually wonder how she got on with her stepchildren, not so much Elizabeth and Edward as they were just children themselves, but more so with Mary who was in well into her 20’s when H8 plonked K.H before Mary and told her to call her “Mummy”.
I should imagine that Mary would have been respectful but not exactly freindly. She probably felt a little embarrassed, having a stepmother who was just a few years younger than her, but there again AOC wasn’t that much older than Mary when, she married Lardarse. However AOC did at least conduct herself with quiet dignity and respect.

IIRC, there was some trouble between Kathryn and Mary when they first married causing 2 of Mary’s ladies being removed from her household. This only lasted a few weeks and the ladies were quickly re-instated.

Having a step-mother your age or younger was reasonably common in those days. Catherine Willowby and Katherine Parr both had step-children close to their age. In CW’s case, her former bethroathed….

For Mary, it must have really pointed out the fact that she wasn’t the golden daughter who expected a marriaghe suitable for her rank as a princess with a descent from 2 powerful royal families, but a woman whom her father called a bastard and one who wasn’t considered worthy of finding a suitable husband for.

It's always bunnies.

February 3, 2014
7:33 am
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Boleyn
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Small wonder really that Mary went mad (loosely worded) the pressure at court during that time must have been pretty unbarable on top of that having a stepmother who was younger than her.
At least with J.S and AOC, who was herself only a few years older than Mary they conducted themselves with the quiet dignity she had become used to with her mother, but K.H flighty behaviour must have irritated Mary somewhat.
I think Mary always believed that her father’s behaviour towards her was the result of A.B influence over him, when Lardarse murdered A.B she learnt that it wasn’t and for her that was a very bitter pill to swallow. Basically in order to get any type of love from her father she had to sacrifice her integrity, her honour, and her religion.
I think Katherine treated her with respect but saw didn’t like her that much, seeing her perhaps as a wet blanket and not a lot of fun.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 3, 2014
10:59 am
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The age gap would have been about 5-9 years, with Mary obviously being older. I think it was likely to have been around 8-9 years, with Katherine being about 16/17 when she came to court.

It’s likely that Mary WAS jealous/embarrassed/offended by Katherine being her new stepmum. She seems to have snubbed Katherine, probably in a similar fashion to how she snubbed Anne Boleyn, and, if I remember correctly, Anne of Cleves. There is evidence of Katherine getting rather offended by Mary not showing her sufficient respect and consequentially removing two of Mary’s ladies from her service. However Mary must have apologised/shown Katherine more humility/respect, or Henry interceded (which is probably less likely) because the two ladies were returned to her service rather promptly afterwards.

I’d argue that Katherine was not a flighty/fun-loving girl who did not behave appropriately for court. Maybe she wasn’t as accustomed to all the pomp of it, and she probably was overwhelmed at points, because we know that Henry spoiled her, but she probably didn’t flutter around court giggling girlishly and being thoroughly inappropriate and immature. Katherine seems to have been a rather effective consort for the short time she reigned – she did make an effort to listen to petitions and otherwise do her job, and she took her role seriously. She achieved more politically then we have record of Jane Seymour doing, yet Seymour is widely recognised as a very composed and mature consort. Katherine seems to have employed the fashion, style, and charisma of Anne Boleyn, with the more passive style of reigning as consort of Jane Seymour (and, really, given her lack of allies and lack of political training, that was the smartest way to play available to her. And she played it well.)

No Other Will But Hers

February 3, 2014
7:16 pm
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Boleyn
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She made the best of a bad situation I would say. There is no doubt she had a good heart, if my lousy memory serves she gave a furred gown and other warm clothes, (that H8 had given her) to the Countess of Sailsbury and gave money to the Tower custodian so tha the poorer prisoners could be fed. She also gave her household servants many little gifts and trinkets, as well as giving AOC little gifts. That to me at least tells me she wasn’t a bad lass. I do feel that she was perhaps overwhelmed by the whole court situation. But she knew her duty and did the best she could.
H8 did spoil her and I suppose that was part of her downfall she believed that a man who showered gifts on her so lavishly could forgive her anything. She trust H8 and he betrayed her. In the tv serious Elizabeth R Elizabeth is dicussing K.H and she says that every where K.H went she was betrayed. First there is trust, then passion, then death and I believe that just about sums up K.H’s life. She didn’t mean any harm to anyone but she was simply too young and naive to understand the dangerous game she was playing. Basically she was a lamb thrown into the lion’s den and devoured.
I often wonder what Mary Lassells hoped to acheive? (I think I’ve asked this before) Did Mary Lassells hate K.H or what?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 3, 2014
10:45 pm
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Please forgive my ignorance – who is Mary Lassells?

February 4, 2014
1:55 am
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Anyanka
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TudorFan said

Please forgive my ignorance – who is Mary Lassells?

Mary Lascells was one of the ladies who lived in the DowagerDuchess of Norfolk’s household and told her brother and fellow reformer, John about KH’s past. Mary had also reproved Henry Manox about his interactions with a young Kathryn. John took these accounts to Archbishop Cramner paving the way for KH’s fall.

Her distaste for the way Kathryn was behaving around men was a reason as to why Mary never seeked employment in Kathryn’s household as ueen unlike some of her fellow housemates.

It's always bunnies.

February 4, 2014
2:00 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

I often wonder what Mary Lassells hoped to acheive? (I think I’ve asked this before) Did Mary Lassells hate K.H or what?

Mary along with her brother John were reformists so religion may have played a part. Possibly along with Mary’s personal distaste for pre-maritial sex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M….._Lascelles

It's always bunnies.

February 4, 2014
2:24 am
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Anyanka
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Shae said

It’s likely that Mary WAS jealous/embarrassed/offended by Katherine being her new stepmum. She seems to have snubbed Katherine, probably in a similar fashion to how she snubbed Anne Boleyn, and, if I remember correctly, Anne of Cleves.

I don’t think Mary ever snubbed AoC since she had no reason to.

Anne had been brought up as a Catholic but comfromed to Henry’s not-really-Catholic-but-close-enough version of early Protestantism, she had no links to those poeple who had made Mary’s life miserable and more importantly she was a member of a ruling family who understood how the life of a noblewoman was a a pawn in international politics.

If anything Anne could empathise with Mary regarding the whole wanting to be married but not having the qualities that attract a suitable match in terms of rank and age.
Anne appears to have been moderately close to Mary until the Wyatt Uprising in 1554 having had a part in Mary’s trimuphant taking of London and during her coronation.

It's always bunnies.

February 5, 2014
3:13 pm
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Boleyn
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This is slightly off topic, but K.H has been viewed by some scholars as a sex crazed teenager who had more hormones than brain cells. (A view I do NOT agree with) We know that missionary position was the accepted norm for sexual congress, we also know that an orgasm was expected if a baby was to be conceived and for the well being of the woman’s sanity (loosely worded). But was there any form of foreplay, or oral sex?

Anyanka
From what little I’ve read about AOC her mother was a staunch Catholic, up until her marriage with with AOC’s father where she converted or accepted the more modern form of worship. However AOC mother did see to it that her daughters were taught the Catholic doctorine, as well as the modern form of worship, so that they would be able to fit in with what ever form of worship their would be husband’s religion was. (A foot in both religious camps so to speak)
Anne was perhaps the best of all H8’s wives as she went about her duties without complaining or poking her nose into H8’s business unlike her predessors and K.P. K.H did show a lot of kindness to those less unfortunate than her, but I don’t think she interferred in H8’s political or dynastic schemes. She may have thought he was a an arsehole as well as useless lump of stinking lard, but never spoke about it to anyone.

If only H8 had given his marriage time to AOC I do feel that H8 and AOC could have been quite happy, he may have got a Duke of York, and perhaps a spare too. I don’t believe he would have stayed faithful however, and K.H would have perhaps just been another notch on his bedpost.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 5, 2014
5:20 pm
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Anyanka said

TudorFan said

Please forgive my ignorance – who is Mary Lassells?

Mary Lascells was one of the ladies who lived in the DowagerDuchess of Norfolk’s household and told her brother and fellow reformer, John about KH’s past. Mary had also reproved Henry Manox about his interactions with a young Kathryn. John took these accounts to Archbishop Cramner paving the way for KH’s fall.

Her distaste for the way Kathryn was behaving around men was a reason as to why Mary never seeked employment in Kathryn’s household as ueen unlike some of her fellow housemates.

Thank you Anyanka for enlightening me! I hadn’t remembered the ‘informant’s’ name or history, very interesting. I too wonder what her motive was. Just spite?

February 5, 2014
9:40 pm
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Boleyn
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It certainly sounds like it might have been spite, Tudor Fan, as she had already made it plain she wanted nothing to do with K.H or the court lifestyle when K.H left the Duchess’s household. I can’t believe that M.L was doing it to protect K.H virtue or modesty.
I’m not to sure, but I believe her brother had a bee in his codpiece, over some arguement either he or one of his family had had with the Howards, and coaxed M.L to tell tales.. Or It might have had something to do with the Seymour boys, not wanting the Howards taken back in to H8 favour.
I do know however once the bomb exploded and M.L had buggered off into obscurity, her brother came to a sticky end as he was burned at the stake as a Heretic in the closing years of H8’s reign. I guess that could be called cold revenge from the grave from K.H.
They always say revenge is a dish best served cold. Which by the way was not said by William Shakespeare, although granted it does sound very Shakespearean. But it isn’t it was said by Pierre Choderlos de Laclosin 1782 in his book Les Liaisons Dangereuses.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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