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There's something about Katherine
January 16, 2014
7:09 pm
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TudorFan
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Another thing that has always struck me as odd … I am under the impression (correct me if I’m wrong) that Henry was usually attracted to mature women. Why did he suddenly fall for such a young girl as Katherine Howard?

January 16, 2014
7:31 pm
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Sharon
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Henry was getting old, and Katherine, with her fun loving nature, made him feel young again. She certainly “perked” him up. Part of his problem with AOC was his bouts with impotence. With Katherine, that was no longer a problem. He acted like a young fool with her. He couldn’t keep his hands to himself. Ewww! Poor Katherine. I don’t know how she did it. She didn’t flinch at the way his leg must have smelled. Maybe that’s why he was attracted to her. She ignored his age and his illness.

January 16, 2014
7:58 pm
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Boleyn
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Middle age spread. I mean dread with Faceache. old age cretin, I mean crisis.
He wanted just one last shot at real happiness, and also the chance to father more children. I think perhaps Jane’s death affected him more than we actually know as she was getting on a bit in years when he married her, and her death hit him hard. Not because of any love he bore her, although he did love her as he loved all his wifes in his own way. But he hoped that she would recover quickly and be good to breed from again.
He knew his time was running out and he needed a few spares in the nursery quick, a younger wife would perhaps be better as they would recover quickly and be ready to start all over again. I also think he was fed up with his wives meddling in the affairs of state. K.O.A, Anne and Jane all at one point got his back up when they interfered with what he wanted to do with England. A young wife who was to say the least a little bit of an airhead would be just dandy. Plus faceache was always in competition with Francois, and what better way to get oneupmanship on him then to pull a young bird.
I agree K.H did put the lead back in his pencil, but I don’t think he was firing on all thrusters by then, the chances of pregnancy were slim, but not impossible.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 16, 2014
9:35 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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Boleyn said
I agree K.H did put the lead back in his pencil

It didn’t take him long to eraser, sadly. ;)

January 16, 2014
10:32 pm
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Anyanka
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Steve Callaghan said

Boleyn said
I agree K.H did put the lead back in his pencil

It didn’t take him long to eraser, sadly. ;)

you owe me a new cuppa….

It's always bunnies.

January 16, 2014
10:53 pm
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TudorFan
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Lol!

So he saw her as his last chance then, you think? Poor, poor little lass.

January 16, 2014
11:09 pm
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Boleyn
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Well I think it was his last chance at finding what he believed was true love. He did call her his rose without a thorn, and I guess he just wanted to perhaps relive the golden years of being a golden Sod I mean God.. I think he just found it hard to except that he was a fat stinking old man. After her disgrace he came down to earth with a bump, well a great big earthquake of a bang probably left a crater in the floor, if he hadn’t gone straight through to the floor below, and possibly the floor below that too, and he suddenly saw himself for what he truly was a fat stinking old man.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 16, 2014
11:45 pm
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Anyanka
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Kathryn, I believe, was hand picked by Norfolk to be Henry’s mistress. She was youngish(17-19), pretty, fun loving, fond of music and dancing..a perfect if pert handful of fun.

What Norfolk hadn’t expected was Henry NOT liking AoC and so Kathryn was suddenly in the running as a wife…She was from a fertile family being one of 10 and she was a compromise of Henry’s favourite attributes.

Pretty, young, not well educated, reasonably submissive, was able to make the best of a bad situation and Henry fell passionately in lurve with her. Henry’s imagination endowed her actions as her being in lurve with him too. The fact he was able to consummate their relationship was more due to her experience rather than ” love making it easy”…

That Kathryn was totally incapable of being Henry’s consort due to her lack of experience and being naive was her tragedy.

It's always bunnies.

January 16, 2014
11:49 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Well I think it was his last chance at finding what he believed was true love. He did call her his rose without a thorn, and I guess he just wanted to perhaps relive the golden years of being a golden Sod I mean God.. I think he just found it hard to except that he was a fat stinking old man. After her disgrace he came down to earth with a bump, well a great big earthquake of a bang probably left a crater in the floor, if he hadn’t gone straight through to the floor below, and possibly the floor below that too, and he suddenly saw himself for what he truly was a fat stinking old man.

Anne of Cleves not recognising him at Rochester really dented the whole self image of Henry, didn’t it.

It's always bunnies.

January 17, 2014
9:13 am
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Boleyn said

Well I think it was his last chance at finding what he believed was true love. He did call her his rose without a thorn, and I guess he just wanted to perhaps relive the golden years of being a golden Sod I mean God.. I think he just found it hard to except that he was a fat stinking old man. After her disgrace he came down to earth with a bump, well a great big earthquake of a bang probably left a crater in the floor, if he hadn’t gone straight through to the floor below, and possibly the floor below that too, and he suddenly saw himself for what he truly was a fat stinking old man.

Lol, for some strange reason I get the impression you don’t like Henry much, Boleyn!

January 17, 2014
4:22 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka.
Yeah that’s true, his oversized ego along with rest of his oversized stinking body certainly took a beating, when AOC didn’t recognise him. But I actually wonder what she had been told about him in the first place. She must have been told something about his appearence surely?
I know that AOC was over praised (for want of a better word) to him, but I don’t think she was bad as he makes out, she was just different that’s all. I still feel that if he had given his marriage a proper go it would have been successful or at least mutually happy. He may have even been able to father another child, although I would say it was doubtful.

Tudor Fan
I’m not over keen on the fat stinking git no, but I suppose he did one good thing, he did help England grow a sence of indepence, and not be so reliant of forgien powers. In short he helped England grow up. Although how he chose to do it, I think was cruel and sadistic. killing people especially wives and destroying religious building was not clever, it was dumb. To me at least that isn’t the act of a man trying to make things better for England, that is a spoilt petulant brat throwing a hissy fit to get his own way.
Lizzy managed to sort out the mess H8 and her sister Mary made and get England to straighten up and fly right.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 19, 2014
1:03 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Anyanka.
Yeah that’s true, his oversized ego along with rest of his oversized stinking body certainly took a beating, when AOC didn’t recognise him. But I actually wonder what she had been told about him in the first place. She must have been told something about his appearence surely?
I know that AOC was over praised (for want of a better word) to him, but I don’t think she was bad as he makes out, she was just different that’s all. I still feel that if he had given his marriage a proper go it would have been successful or at least mutually happy. He may have even been able to father another child, although I would say it was doubtful.

I think Anne was told about this golden shining prince who was going to meeet her in London but when confronted by this plainly dressed, fat, grey-haired man she would have reacted as any well-bred noblewoman and tried to “frost” him until he left.

Had Henry buried his pride, I suspect that the Cleves marriage would have worked. Anne has always come across to me as a woman who would make the best of any situation and made Henry’s comfort her priority. Bearing a Duke of York and other sons and/or daughters would have cemented Anne or any other wife as being worthy of being True Wife 2 tm.

It's always bunnies.

January 19, 2014
10:36 am
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Olga
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I haven’t read any whole book on Catherine yet but I have always assumed Henry was still impotent when he married her, even if she “stirred him up”. Is there any evidence they were actually sleeping together? Considering he had been having problems in that department since Anne Boleyn?

January 19, 2014
11:42 am
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Boleyn
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Olga, Starkey says that they were known to have “loud and noisy sex”. I don’t think it was that often though as the pain in his leg was probably too great to even think about carnal desires, let alone a bit of shake rattle and roll with the missus.
There is a story how true it is I don’t know, that Lardarse came to her bedroom one night wanting to play a game of ludo, or tiddlywinks or something and that Culpepper was already there strip poker with her, as a result he had to grab his clothes quick and jump out of the window to avoid being caught.
I think Lardarse’s cannon was pretty much out of ammo by the time he married K.H. No proof of that of course, but I’m taking it on the sence that it took him quite a time to get Jane pregnant, where with K.O.A and Anne they got pregnant straight away. It’s possible that the fall in the jousting yard in 1536, the horse falling on him may have upset his sexual prowess squashed his testicles somehow. Maybe a brain injury affected his putruity gland. Or it could be something as simple as one of the medicines the doctor was treating him with had a side affect of stopping live rounds being fired. Mercury was a common medicine used to treat Ulcers, and the side affect to that is sterility so I believe. But I don’t believe he was treated with Mercury, for any ailment.
There is another thought he caught Smallpox in his mid 20’s? and although he shook it off quickly due to his fitness and strength. is it possible that some of the smallpox gene? had remained in his testicles and the horse falling on him triggered it up and could have affected his sperm count?
Did he have any mistresses at all after the incident in the tilt yard.?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 19, 2014
2:26 pm
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Olga
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Starkey said that? It’s been while since I have read Six Wives. Perhaps they mistook her screams at being suffocated under the bulk of his weight for pleasure.

Actually I don’t know if there were any mistresses after 1536, I can’t think of any off the top of my head. Anne was already complaining that he wasn’t virile so I don’t think it’s surprising it took so long for Jane to get pregnant. Come to think of it he started some sort of diet after he married young Catherine. Maybe it is more a simple case of being too fat. She was supposed to be petite it must have caused them some sexual problems, considering you could only have sex with your wife in the missionary position. They also thought the woman had to achieve an orgasm to be able to conceive and he was obviously hoping to get her pregnant. Maybe his diet had something to do with that.

Well poker had yet to be invented and her window would have been quite high so I reckon that’s a folk tale Bo. I have always believed Starkeys theory she and Culpeper never slept together anyway.

January 19, 2014
3:09 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree Olga. I don’t believe any sexual contact happened between K.H and Culpepper although I do believe the intention was there. Culpepper jumping out of the window is a pretty story and possibly invented to try a blacken K.H’s name, a little like the incest story between Anne and her brother.
Maybe H8 diet did help a little towards helping him regain sexual activities, but I dont think it made any difference for his cannon problems.
I think that the missionary position was considered the norm as if you think about it, the man being on top was again a form of expressing male superiority. Although I do think other positions were practiced, but perhaps, maybe in the whore houses more than in homes of the nobility and royality.
It could well be that there was problems on both sides K.H herself may have had gyno problems. If she and Dereham wer involved in a very torrid affair I find it strange that there was no hint of a pregnancy or miscarriage mentioned in all that time. Perhaps she was using a rudimentary form on birth control? But on the whole I think it was H8 who was the problem. it was a case of the body being willing but the spririt being unable.

LOL I wonder if Henry had a copy of the Karma Sutra on his bookshelves. That’s a kind of Mrs Beeton’s cookbook for sex maniacs.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 19, 2014
9:36 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

It could well be that there was problems on both sides K.H herself may have had gyno problems. If she and Dereham wer involved in a very torrid affair I find it strange that there was no hint of a pregnancy or miscarriage mentioned in all that time. Perhaps she was using a rudimentary form on birth control? But on the whole I think it was H8 who was the problem. it was a case of the body being willing but the spririt being unable.

KH claimed that she knew how to meddle with a man and not concieve a child. Whether that mean some kind of birth control or a non-penerative sex, manual or oral, I’m not sure.

It's always bunnies.

January 20, 2014
2:00 am
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Olga
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Actually just veering off topic for a moment I wonder if Mary Boleyn was using contraception with Henry? Considering she didn’t conceive for four or five years.

I was curious to see in Tudor by Leanda de Lisle, that she took Dereham’s claim of “had her by the ****” to masturbating her. Puts a rather different spin on it in that case.

January 20, 2014
10:05 am
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Boleyn
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Were there affective form of contraception back then?
As for K.H. it’s quite possible that she learn how to as she put it “meddle with a man” but who would have taught her these meddling ways?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 20, 2014
11:56 am
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Olga
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Most effective would have been the withdrawal method I imagine. I know they had various fairly ridiculous herbal methods as well lol, some were applied internally, some were taken as potions.
Well Catherine lived with quite a few other girls didn’t she?

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