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Least favorite wife?
August 16, 2011
3:27 pm
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Mya Elise
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I'm not, for one second, trying to defend Henry VIII. I think everything that happend to Mary was very unfair, what did she do to deserve it?

I just think that maybe if Catherine had backed down then only maybe Mary's harsh treatment would of stopped and since Mary would never of accepted Anne as Queen then the bad treatment would happen all over again. I think Anne did act cruely towards Mary which was because she hated Catherine and Mary was a threat to her position as Queen. I don't encourage those acts that Anne did. That is the only thing that kind of bothered me by Anne.

I think Henry targeted Mary because he knew it was most precious to Catherine. So let me just say that i don't and wouldn't ever like the treatment that both Catherine & her daughter recieved. Catherine had a right to fight for her and her daughter. My love for Anne Boleyn does not blind me to this.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 26, 2011
1:27 pm
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WilesWales
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I have to agree with Claire on this one 100%. Katharine was afraid for as she has been reported in saying, “…he was endangering his immortal soul.” Why would she otherwise have stood so firm, and in court when she looked Henry in the eyes and asked him if she were not a virgin when they married he could not answer? Why did she say she appealed to Rome and just walk out with the dignity of the Princess of Spain and Queen of England that she was? I could go on, but I think I've said enough right now for a good agreement with another's message. Any thoughts?

 

Claire said:

I can see your point, Hannah, about Catherine and I've often thought the same, that she should have gone to a nunnery and saved everyone a lot of hassle and pain, but we've got the benefit of a hindsight. Catherine had a strong faith and believed that the vows that she and Henry made were eternally binding and could not be broken, she feared for her soul and for Henry's, plus she was afraid that Mary would suffer if she did not back down. I know that Mary suffered as a result of Catherine not backing down but Catherine felt that she had to fight for Mary's right to the throne. Love may indeed fade and marriages die but marriage was forever in Catherine's eyes.

I also don't think that she was haught or proud, just a woman fighting for her marriage and for her beliefs. They had been married a long time and Catherine loved Henry with all her heart and all her might, I think I'd fight for my husband too, particularly if I thought that the other woman was just a passing fancy or that he had been \”bewitched\”.

Sambo, I actually don't agree with you about Catherine Parr – I'm obviously in a \”disagreeable\” mood today! – and I think that the idea of her as a nurse maid needs to be done away with. She was an intelligent woman who actually managed to escape a plot against her by her quick thinking and by using her wits. She was a passionate reformer and had a huge influence on Elizabeth as her stepmother.

Come on, let's challenged the stereotypes concerning these women:-

Catherine of Aragon was not a boring, religious fuddy duddy who should just be known for the divorce.

Anne Boleyn was not an adulteress or witch.

Jane Seymour was not meek and mild.

Anne of Cleves was not a Flanders Mare.

Catherine Howard was not a sex crazed teenager.

Catherine Parr was not an aged nursemaid.

!! [Image Can Not Be Found]


"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 26, 2011
1:38 pm
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WilesWales
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Sharon said:

Anyanka said:

It's worse than just betraying Anne. Jane also betrayed KoA since she and H8 were having an affair prior to Katherine's death if she was such a supporter of Katherine's marriage being valid.


Anyanka, I never looked at it that way. The whole crew of the Catholic faction were a bunch of hypocrites. KOA was dying, and that made it okay for them to set up a new prize. I know she probably gave no thought to Anne's downfall, but I wonder what Jane was thinking in those months about Katherine, and did she give a thought to her own soul? If Jane loved Katherine, her affair with Henry had to give her pause.  At least once.
An aside about KOA.  If she had gone off to the nunnery, her marriage would have been dissolved, right?  What would that have meant for Mary. I assume the disolution would be an annulment?  If an annulment means they were never married, wouldn't Mary still be considered illegitimate? Either way, wouldn't Mary lose?

 

I couldn't agree more with both of these! But in those days women did what their families thought. The Seymours definitely wanted to gain control as they could well tell that the Howards, after a long time, were on their way down the tubes, as they were brought to their highest point when Anne married Henry (as Anne's mother, was Elizabeth Howard), and were going and did go down the tubes along with Anne.


"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 31, 2011
9:47 am
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Milady12
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I thought about this long and hard. I read all the posts. But truth be told I don't have a least favorite. I don't even have A favorite. These women are all remarkable! Their bravery in the face of adversity is amazing. Think of it, they were totally alone in the turbulent sea of insanity that was Henry. They were pushed into that sea by the men in their families. Men who used them to further their own interests. As for friends, well there are no friends, only other women who are being positioned by their own families to replace you. No one to throw you a life-line. Sink or swim. Imagine it….being in one of the most dangerous courts in history with a madman for a husband and no one….NO ONE….to help you, no one to talk to… no one to trust. Betrayal at every turn. I know many people love this one or hate that one for displacing the other. But think of it. They were like chess pieces being moved about the board by the men in their families. Anyone who threatened the Queen, was knocked off the board by the players not the other pawns. The other players were the men not the women. The women were the pawns. Yet each of them did their best to help the Royal children. Children of the wives that came before them. So I try in my research to champion the courage, the dignity, the poise, the love and the grace of each and every one of these women….as Ladies, as mothers, as Queens.

Kimberly

August 31, 2011
11:37 am
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WilesWales
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I must comment Milady12 on her thoughts and what she has posted. This is the most well an example of deep thought put in a concise manner that I've seen in long time. “Chess pieces, pawns, Queen, etc.” she's most absolutely correct. Everyone on this discussion list would be doing themselves a favor by reading it. I cannot think of a time when I have felt more pleasure in reading a post. Thank you, Milady12, WilesWalesLaugh 

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 31, 2011
1:39 pm
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WilesWales
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I meant I must “commend” in this first sentence. Please forgive me. I didn't think the last post was going to be saved, as it took about 30 minutes and it was still saving, and I exited the file. I'm so glad it was saved. WileWales

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

June 9, 2012
12:35 pm
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Nightshade
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My least favorite is Katherine Howard, although I don’t care for Jane Seymour either. I feel sorry for Katherine, being forced into a marriage with a fat and grumpy old man, but she was none too bright. How smart do you have to be to realize that if the king could discard a faithful wife of 20+years and execute the passionate love of his life, an affair was probably not a good idea? She should have waited for Henry to die before embarking on other relationships. I just don’t like stupidity, and though she was young, she was old enough to know better.

Jane Seymour- I’ve just never found her very interesting, and depending on which source you consult she was either a) a weak/submissive doormat, or b) a calculating woman who helped poison the king’s mind against his wife and openly questioned the paternity of their daughter, neither of which do I find very admirable.

Although I don’t like either Katherine Howard or Jane Seymour, I’m not venomous about it like some people that I’ve encountered. They were, after all, victims of Henry VIII, just like the other wives. Even Jane, his supposed “favorite”, was threatened with the same fate as Anne Boleyn.

June 9, 2012
1:49 pm
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Boleyn
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This is a tough one. I think perhaps that this acolade goes to 2 Queens
Jane and K.P, although they do both have their good points too.
Jane was the calm after the storm, but Henry would have got bored with her anyway. Her only saving grace from being a complete bore is the fact she did give Henry the son that he wanted.
As with Jane, K.P was again the calm after the storm, her only merit is the fact that she managed to reunite Henry with his children and get Mary and Elizabeth restored to the succesion.
But personality wise both of them would have bored me rigid. I wouldn’t call Jane a cold calculating strumpet, but she certainly was ambitious in her way. However it got her nowhere and did little for her.
K.P it’s not really her fault she was like she was. All of her husbands prior to Thomas Seymour were elderly men so her youth and passion were spent nursing old farts. She was ambitious but again it got her nowhere and did nothing for her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 9, 2012
6:57 pm
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Anyanka
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Actually, KP was married to Edward Burgh who was around the same age as her(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..ward_Burgh).

His grandfather was also named Edward used to be believed to be her first husband but recent reviews of papers related to her especially Maud Parr’s will have proved that it was the younger Edward who was KP’s hubby.

It's always bunnies.

June 9, 2012
7:48 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Actually, KP was married to Edward Burgh who was around the same age as her(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S…..ward_Burgh).

His grandfather was also named Edward used to be believed to be her first husband but recent reviews of papers related to her especially Maud Parr’s will have proved that it was the younger Edward who was KP’s hubby.

Thank you Anyanka. It does seem as if once again history has got it’s knickers in a knot somewhere along the line. This often happens though as back then records of hatches matches and dispatches weren’t always recorded, this is perhaps one of those times when it was assumed that the Edward Burgh mentioned in connection with K.P was the older not the younger Edward.
I rather think that K.P would have married the younger Edward.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 10, 2012
2:16 pm
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Boleyn
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Nightshade said

My least favorite is Katherine Howard, although I don’t care for Jane Seymour either. I feel sorry for Katherine, being forced into a marriage with a fat and grumpy old man, but she was none too bright. How smart do you have to be to realize that if the king could discard a faithful wife of 20+years and execute the passionate love of his life, an affair was probably not a good idea? She should have waited for Henry to die before embarking on other relationships. I just don’t like stupidity, and though she was young, she was old enough to know better.

K.H wasn’t stupid she was just a irresponsible teenager. I think the word Lemming describes her to a T going ever onwards not understanding the consequences of where her actions would lead her, and ultimately paid the price, with her life.
She was given the standard education that most girls received, but for the most part the Duchess pretty much left her to her own devices.
K.H ‘s so called freinds were some of the reason to why she went off the rails. She must have been under an enormous amount of pressure from them once they started having boyfreinds to do the same. I.e. to be part of the gang you must do what the gang does. She was foolish to have a sexual relationship with Derham, but she just wanted to fit in.
Her affair with Culpepper was purely platonic nothing sexual happened between them although Culpepper did admit he had carnal desires towards her. K.H and Culpepper were cousins and had spent some time together as children so perhaps he was the only one who knew her better than anyone else, as a person. Culpepper was just someone she could let off steam with when she was feeling frustrated. It can’t have been easy for her married to a cantankerous stinky old man. If anyone is to blame for K.H’s problems it her uncle the Duke of Norfolk. The man was obsessed with power and didn’t care how he got it or who he had to betray and get rid of as long as he got it..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 11, 2012
7:34 am
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Gill
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Jane Seymour is my least favourite, hands down. I think she was a nasty piece of work from a thoroughly nasty family. She aimed at being Henry’s mistress until she saw an opportunity for more, then all of a sudden she does an about face and she’s making a big deal about her ‘virtue’. Henry fell for the act hook, line and sinker. Jane is not recorded as showing any qualms at all about Anne having to die to make way for her marriage to Henry. She had been Anne’s lady in waiting – she must have known the accusations against her were false and yet she seems to have been ok with that. I think she was despicable.

AB is my favourite by a country mile. I’ve been fascinated by her since I was a teenager. Katherine Howard doesn’t interest me much – I think she was a very silly young girl who should have known better, but she didn’t deserve to die. With Katherine of Aragon I think it’s desperately sad that after so many years together she so badly misunderstood her husband’s character. I think she saw – or wanted to see – things in Henry that just weren’t there. I quite like Anne of Cleves, I think she was a bit of a character and it’s a pity Henry didn’t like her. Catherine Parr is a bit dull.

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