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Katherine of Aragon- Something I was thinking about.
November 22, 2013
3:11 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Olga
I meant Arthur and Kathy.
The picture of young H7 is very alike to the pictures we have of H6. I wouldn’t say he is anyway he comes close to being a stud muffin, but he is pleasing in appearence. He has his mother eyes I think.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 22, 2013
3:23 pm
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Olga
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How would the Spanish alliance had gotten rid of EW? I think his main concern was strengthening the dynasty. Considering all four of his children became monarchs/consorts I would say he did pretty well. Although poor old Harry didn’t have a marriage set up for him before Arthur died, he probably felt left out.

November 22, 2013
5:35 pm
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Boleyn
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Olga I’m not sure if I’ve read this right, buut when Lambert Simnel played his power games, it was alleged that she was somehow involved. Whether that was with support with men or money I don’t know. But it could be of course, that Henry just couldn’t be assed to provide her with an income and household befitting her status. After all he did much the same thing to Kathy, made her live in the court as a pensioner of sorts.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 24, 2013
11:03 pm
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Olga
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Just a quick correction, Simnel was a little boy, he was a figurehead used by adults in the rebellion. Which is why he wasn’t executed and given a job instead.
There’s no evidence whatever she was invloved. Contemporary rumour yes, but no evidence.

November 25, 2013
7:53 am
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Jasmine
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The fact there were even rumours of her involvement is quite interesting.

November 25, 2013
9:57 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Olga, and yes Jasmine you are right. Makes you wonder why these rumours were circulated in the first place?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 25, 2013
10:17 am
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Olga
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Rumours are rumours *shrug* it doesn’t mean there is any truth in them. So far it seems pretty doubtful. Why would she try to knock her daughter and grandson off the throne for Clarence’s son, and an impostor at that? It’s not as if she and Clarence were remotely close at any point.
Unless of course you want to subscribe to the theory that one of her sons was alive and she was planning to replace Simnel with her son after the rebellion but that is getting a little far-fetched, even for my wild speculations.

November 25, 2013
11:13 am
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Bob the Builder
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Olga said

Rumours are rumours *shrug* it doesn’t mean there is any truth in them. So far it seems pretty doubtful. Why would she try to knock her daughter and grandson off the throne for Clarence’s son, and an impostor at that? It’s not as if she and Clarence were remotely close at any point.
Unless of course you want to subscribe to the theory that one of her sons was alive and she was planning to replace Simnel with her son after the rebellion but that is getting a little far-fetched, even for my wild speculations.

^^^this^^^ spectacularly important – i can’t imagine a pretender less likely to recieve EW’s support than a child of George, Duke of Clarence and Isabel Neville. can anyone imagine a world where EW would conspire to de-throne the man who’d killed Richard III, was married to her eldest daughter and who would pass his crown onto her Grandchildren in favour of a child of the detested Clarence/Neville?

i’m not convinced there was any great closeness between EW and anyone at the Tudor court, and i think she’d be very much seen as a reminder of the past – she may well have decided on a religious life all of her own accord, but i rather doubt anyone at court tried to dissaude her…

November 25, 2013
12:42 pm
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Boleyn
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I think you may be right Bob. I can see no reason at all why EW would really want to support the pretenders. She certainly wouldn’t gain anything from it. I agree that there was no love lost between Henry Tulip and E.W. E.W belonged to the past, a time of war and violence. When Henry Tulip won Bosworth, E.W became obsolete a relic of the past. I believe she did go to the convent of her own volution.
E.W had seen her children safely married, she knew her sons were dead, or suspected they were dead. E4 was dead and to be honest I think he was her true love. All the people that were from her time as Queen were dead, and most of her freinds and family were dead. I believe M.B and E.W tolerated each other, although I think M.B made it clear that she was the the only dominate matriarch in the court.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 11, 2013
3:46 pm
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Boleyn
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The only real bugbear I have about EW is her apparent non concern about what had happened to her boys. It seems to me at least as she simply didn’t care. Surely as their mother she would have wanted to know the truth, be they dead or alive. It was almost as if she said “Oh well shit happens, best get Elizabeth married to Henry Tulip and have done with it.” Did she not care about her boys at all.

EW is a very strange woman to actually try and figure out, although she must have had that certain something that made Edward go cock a hoop over her to want to risk his throne to marry her. Anne B must have also had that certain magic, but unlike E.W she was unable to keep Face ache’s love. Face Ache didn’t have the capicity to love anyone for long save himself. His whole life was revolved around his own love affair with himself.
A little like Narcissus, well a lot like Narcissus actually.
EW somehow managed to hold on to Edward’s love despite his mistresses. and something strange as well. is that until 1470 Elizabeth had only bore girls and yet didn’t appear to suffer from it, Edward was perhaps concerned about the lack of a male heir, but he didn’t villify or berate her for her lack of a male heir. When EW had Eddy Junior he perhaps breathed a sigh of relief.
With face ache he was really quite vicious with K.O.A and Anne for their lack of a male heir and often villified and blamed them, and made it clear that a mistake I.e a daughter would not be tolerated a second time. I use the word mistake in the loosest term. But I suppose in Lard arse’s mind they may well have been viewed that way. He wanted a son and they had let him down and betrayed his love by giving birth to a daughter.
I often wonder what would have happened if Queen Jane bore and daughter and died, would he just sweep their marriage under the carpet and shut the baby away in a cupboard?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 11, 2013
8:41 pm
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Bob the Builder
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Boleyn said …Edward was perhaps concerned about the lack of a male heir, but he didn’t villify or berate her for her lack of a male heir. When EW had Eddy Junior he perhaps breathed a sigh of relief….

apart from the obvious/apparent differences in personality between Edward IV and Henry VIII, there’s some significant differences in circumstance as well – by 1521 Henry VIII is 30, by the time he finally marries Anne Boleyn he’s in his early 40’s – added to which he is the last Tudor prince, one sister is Queen of Scotland and her children are, from recall, disbarred from the throne because they aren’t born in England, and the other sister is kind of in disgrace because of her marriage to Charles Brandon.

Henry is it, there’s no fall back, no reserve: time and his child producing history is not on his side.

Edward IV on the other hand is younger, in 1470 he’s only 28, he has several healthy daughters, and in addition the House of York is positively brimming with young, healthy, battle hardened potential successors – George, Duke of Clarence, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, as well as the children of Edwards many sisters. if Edward had lived till he was 60 instead of dying at 41, he would have two adult sons, one younger brother (Clarence was exected for treason by Edward in 1478), grandchildren and countless adult nephews to fill the line of succession.

Henry doesn’t have that, he might be a complete shit, but he has problems with very serious outcomes to deal with: he has no male heir, and the last attempt to put a woman on the throne resulted in a 20 year civil war. it may not fit the narrative, but this is not a man who is changing wives purely because he gets bored quickly.

December 12, 2013
11:32 am
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Boleyn
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I agree Bob, but Although E4 was only 28 in 1470 EW was getting on a bit, so in some ways the situation was a little like that of H8 and KOA granted the age difference between KOA and H8 was a lot smaller than E4 and EW but it was still an age difference, youth was not on the side of both of these woman.

To be fair E4 only back up in case of lack of son or death in childhood of son was Richard. George and his heirs, were disbarred, due to the fact he was executed as a traitor. As you say H8 didn’t have that luxury. But I do actually wonder what would have happened if EW failed to produce a son, would he have divorced her and married a younger woman to get a son? That’s of course if he had lived until he was 60 or older.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 12, 2013
12:01 pm
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Olga
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Boleyn said

The only real bugbear I have about EW is her apparent non concern about what had happened to her boys. It seems to me at least as she simply didn’t care. Surely as their mother she would have wanted to know the truth, be they dead or alive. It was almost as if she said “Oh well shit happens, best get Elizabeth married to Henry Tulip and have done with it.” Did she not care about her boys at all.

I’m sorry because I am going to rant, but why on earth would you say that? Why shouldn’t she help her daughter safeguard herself and their family? The betrothal had been spoken about years before Richard III deposed his brother’s family, then she and Margaret made an alliance when they were both suffering under Richard III, and Elizabeth of York was stuck at court being humiliated by him. I don’t even understand why people need to constantly slander Elizabeth Woodville. She suffered terrible losses and everyone wants to tell us what they would have done in her position. How can anyone even know she didn’t actually know the truth? All of the evidence points to the Woodvilles and their supporters accepting the boys had been murdered. Most of Richard’s subjects thought the same thing. She was trapped, she was powerless, half her family had been murdered by Clarence and Gloucester over the years, she had lost her sons and she still had four or five daughters to worry about.

As for Edward’s mistresses, Elizabeth was constantly pregnant for fourteen years. He could only sleep with her a few months out of each year, it’s hardly surprising he had mistresses. Of course she held onto his love, she was beautiful and clever and gave him a child every other year, why do you think henry VIII was never satisfied with his wives? His great-grandmother, grandmother and mother all had loads of kids, Elizabeth of York had four boys.

December 12, 2013
12:31 pm
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Bob the Builder
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Olga said
The betrothal had been spoken about years before Richard III deposed his brother’s family…

i’m not sure about that – Elizabeth of York had been betrothed to the Dauphin of France for years, added to which Henry Tudor had been the target of assassintion plots and ‘extradition’ requests from Edward IV since about 1472. i think is just a tad unlikely that there was anyone seriously suggesting that Edward IV or anyone at court was considering having Elizabeth of York marry him…

December 12, 2013
12:35 pm
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Jasmine
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Actually Boleyn made a very interesting point. EW never accused anyone, including Richard, of murdering her sons. In fact an argument can be made for her coming out of sanctuary and making peace with Richard was because she knew what had happened to them and they were not dead. As for her daughters being humiliated by Richard – this is also not true. Richard promised to find them husbands of suitable rank, to provide them with appropriate dowries and stated that their husbands would have to treat them well, otherwise they would answer to him.

EofY was part of the court for Christmas 1484 and was richly dressed, so much so that it was mentioned in the Croyland Chronicle!

There is no evidence that Richard murdered the princes, or even that they were dead by the time H7 married EoY. There is a local tradition around Gipping Hall, in Essex, that EW and the boys stayed there for a time around 1484 – the place belonged to Sir James Tyrrell and it is also possible that he conveyed them, from there, to Margaret of Burgundy’s court.

December 12, 2013
1:02 pm
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Olga
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I know all of that Jasmine and have gone over it with you guys, but at face value they all appeared to have accepted the boys were dead. Whether this was staged between Richard and Elizabeth Woodville is another matter. But to say she didn’t care about her boys because she was negotiating to bring her daughters out of sanctuary irks me. One has nothing to do with the other in my opinion.

The Christmas pageant was exactly where the rumours began circulating about Elizabeth and Richard, and that Richard was planning to put Anne Neville away. The Croyland chronicler came across horrified, he certainly thought it was scandalous, the entire thing was inappropriate and Richard did humiliate her. Inadvertently perhaps, but it was a ridiculous idea. Dressing her on clothes like the Queen was bound to cause comment, he had just bastardized her and then dressed her in fabrics that presented her as bearing the same rank as his Queen. No wonder people were gossiping.

Bob I was reading about a statement Stanley made about Margaret Beaufort discussing the affinity between Henry and Elizabeth with others at court (it’s in the Calendar of Papal Registers), so there’s a theory people were discussing in in regards to the possibility of marriage. I thought I had read Edward considered it briefly at one point but was not very serious about it. As it was they needed four dispensations when they did get married, I don;t know why Stanley would make that up anyway. Of course he was a little slimy Smile

December 12, 2013
1:24 pm
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Jasmine
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But, Olga, Richard was negotiating a marriage for her with a Portuguese prince. Of course she would have been dressed richly, Why do you think it was Richard which organised her clothes? More likely it was Anne, as Elizabeth was part of her household.

There was absolutely no purpose in Richard marrying EoY. She was not an heiress to the crown, she was the illegitimate daughter of his brother. Uncle-Niece marriages were not usual in England, unlike the Hapsburgs of Spain, and would not have strengthened Richard’s position one iota. Richard, in fact, after Anne’s death, was in negotiations to marry Joanna of Portugal, who was a Lancastrian heiress by blood, so had the marriage occurred, the unification of York and Lancaster would have taken place much earlier.

December 12, 2013
1:58 pm
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Olga
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As far as I have read he wasn’t negotiating those marriages until March. He could have dressed her in rich clothing without it being stuff from the Queen’s wardrobe. There were rules regarding fabrics and rank, by dressing her in the same fabrics as the Queen, which Elizabeth would not normally be allowed to wear, they were displaying her as having the same rank as the Queen. If Anne did it of her own volition then she was an idiot, and Richard an idiot for not putting a stop to it. Both of them should have known the scandal it would cause. So what is to say it wasn’t done purposely to try and make a fool of her?

As it was he had to send her from court and make a public denial. His own advisers took him to task, do you really think that Richard never considered marrying her? Obviously he said something to start the speculation and the Christmas display is what started all of the rumours in earnest. Elizabeth would have strengthened Richard’s position with those loyal to her father. There were plenty of people who thought Richard had murdered his nephews, the rumours had already started in 1483. Had he married her he might have stopped all the speculation about their fate and won people’s loyalty easier. He had publicly complained about Anne’s infertility after their son Edward died. Croyland mentioned people thought he had grounds for divorce. Again, no wonder people were gossiping.

December 12, 2013
2:18 pm
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Bob the Builder
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Olga said … I was reading about a statement Stanley made about Margaret Beaufort discussing the affinity between Henry and Elizabeth with others at court (it’s in the Calendar of Papal Registers)…>

without being dismissive, thats not ‘people’ discussing it, thats (at that stage in the WotR) deluded and desperate Lancastrians discussing it.

this is not unakin to my 16 yo self discussing my upcoming marriage to Jennifer Lopez or Helena Christiansen with my school friends – wild, laughable, deluded fantasy. i can see a logic of tying the last Lancastrians into the Yorkist dynasty, and with two sons first in the line of succession, the idea of doing so at the ‘cost’ of marrying Edward IV’s eldest daughter to said Lancastrian would have looked pretty cheap, but being able to see the logic of it is very different to seriously considering it, especially when the same daughter could be married off the heir to the throne of France.

does anyone recall if there was a serious proposal from MB that she marry Richard DoG before he married Anne Neville, or was that just another of the ‘dramatisations’ of our friend Gregory?

December 12, 2013
2:43 pm
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Olga
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LOL Bob if I come across anything more solid than Stanley I’ll let you know. And no I have never heard of MB asking to marry Richard, I don’t even remember if that was in the book.

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