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Jane Seymour the 'kind one'
September 16, 2013
4:53 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

Mimico, Much the same could be said of KOA too, she got pregnant within weeks of their marriage. It’s very likely that he did have his next victim lined up, probably some forgien match. Jane’s pregnancy scuppered those plans, and her death was a complete shock to him, but I’m given to believe that within weeks if not days of her death he was already looking around for another wife. When K.H was murdered, it was said he was greif stricken, why then did he have a valentine party (loosely worded) the following day? Henry was a vindictive, lecturous moron. (Yes Steve I know. “I am as subtle as a brick end” lol)
Anyanka, I thought after Henry had showed an interest in Jane, William Dormer was proposed as a match for Jane’s sister Dorothy instead?
“Hide the sausage” lol Anyanka. You are getting as bad as me.

Once Henry had the woman of his dreams, he was searching for the next one to take her place. Just in case. Had Henry just a little bit of respect for Jane, he would not have been looking at the beauties at court so very shortly after marrying her. Nor would he be making comments that he should not have married her as quickly as he did. I think it was natural for Cromwell and company to send out feelers for another wife within a month of Jane’s death. I don’t know whether Henry was in on that or not. I mean I’m not sure he was the one pushing for a new wife. I thought that was done by his council.
Henry was grief stricken when he first heard the council’s findings about KH. By the time of her death, he was over it! Henry was the murderer here, so to speak.

September 16, 2013
9:40 pm
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Anyanka, I thought after Henry had showed an interest in Jane, William Dormer was proposed as a match for Jane’s sister Dorothy instead?

According to wiki..Jane Dormer, later Duchess of Feria, was born in 1538 so William was still married to Mary Sidney then. eta… Mary died in 1542.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Dormer

He married Dorothy Catesby in 1550. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W…..iam_Dormer

It's always bunnies.

September 17, 2013
2:06 am
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Mimico
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Exactly how rich was the Seymours and the Howard/ Boleyns?
I’m not exactly sure how a dowry works so can someone explain? And how much was expected fo a dowry? I’m kinda confused Embarassed

September 17, 2013
2:31 am
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Olga
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In Ordeal by Ambition William Seymour claimed Lady Dormer married her son off to a Sidney because she was enraged by the thought of the match with Jane, who was too lowly for her son.

I agree Anyanka, from what I’ve read most historians seem to speculate Jane was hiding feelings of insecurity by acting haughty. Although that didn’t help poor old Lady Lisle who had to fork our for a whole new wardrobe for her daughter. I’m not sure if she was mindful of what people had thought of Anne, but people disliked Anne because of Katherine of Aragon, not her bloodlines. I don’t suspect anyone thought to complain about Kathrine Parr not being a princess.
In any case I think the general populace always preferred an English Queen. It was the nobles who were more concerned with who was descended from who.

Mimico the Howards were not only rich, they were powerful. They had lost their titles after his father was killed at Bosworth (fighting on Richard’s side) Thomas Howard (3rd Norfolk) married one of Edward IV’s daughter’s, Princess Anne, during Henry VII’s reign and the family got the Norfolk and Surrey titles restored during Henry VIII’s reign. Both he and his father were good soldiers and often employed in military campaigns, obviously important to Henry VIII.
Thomas Boleyn worked his way up at court because he was talented and valuable to Henry, and they were very well off (and titled) by the time of Anne’s death. While Thomas lost his position at court initially after Anne’s fall but still had a lot of wealth and property to leave Mary Boleyn.

Jane’s father was a knight, and the family descended from important enough people, but basically they were just not that well off.

As for dowry’s it’s not something I have read a great deal about to be honest, and I would assume the amount expected was always commensurate with the importance of the groom.

September 17, 2013
3:36 am
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Anyanka
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Mimico said

Exactly how rich was the Seymours and the Howard/ Boleyns?
I’m not exactly sure how a dowry works so can someone explain? And how much was expected fo a dowry? I’m kinda confused Embarassed

Simply..dowry was the lady’s parent’s or guardian paid to the groom’s family..that was her worth.. Her value as a bride was based on her monerary worth, beauty, connections as the groom’s family decided.. a less than supermdel woman with enough money was a better deal than a reknowned beauty but less than a woman who was a relative of some-one in power..
The actual amounts reflected the husband’s family money, the wife’s famly money and a lot of behind the scenes talking.

Dowry was what the groom’s family expected.. the there was the jointure which was what the groom’s family was expected to provide the wife with as 1) her pin-money(pocket-money) or 2) should the grooom die before her as an annual payment to ensure her state was comaprable to that she espoused as the wife of a nobleman.

The Seymours were poor in monetry and connection terms. The Bolyn/Howards had a higher status with regard to money and influence..Simply due to thier long heritage of being ..noble. The Seymours were landed gentry of the second or 3rd class..Rich but not one of us..

It's always bunnies.

September 17, 2013
3:39 am
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Anyanka
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Olga said

As for dowry’s it’s not something I have read a great deal about to be honest, and I would assume the amount expected was always commensurate with the importance of the groom.

Nope..dowery was always about the bride..jointure was about the groom ands/or his family..a rich lady could always be assured of a groom an improvished nobleman..less so..

It's always bunnies.

September 17, 2013
3:46 am
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Olga
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That’s what I was saying, the more important the groom, the larger the dowry would have to be paid.

September 17, 2013
6:56 am
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Boleyn said

Mimico, Much the same could be said of KOA too, she got pregnant within weeks of their marriage. It’s very likely that he did have his next victim lined up, probably some forgien match. Jane’s pregnancy scuppered those plans, and her death was a complete shock to him, but I’m given to believe that within weeks if not days of her death he was already looking around for another wife. When K.H was murdered, it was said he was greif stricken, why then did he have a valentine party (loosely worded) the following day? Henry was a vindictive, lecturous moron. (Yes Steve I know. “I am as subtle as a brick end” lol)
Anyanka, I thought after Henry had showed an interest in Jane, William Dormer was proposed as a match for Jane’s sister Dorothy instead?
“Hide the sausage” lol Anyanka. You are getting as bad as me.

I think it was natural for Cromwell and company to send out feelers for another wife within a month of Jane’s death. I don’t know whether Henry was in on that or not. I mean I’m not sure he was the one pushing for a new wife. I thought that was done by his council.

Actually I recently read somewhere about remarriage in Tudor times. It was acceptable for a man to remarry after a month of mourning his wife, providing so I understand it his next wife was a woman who was previously unmarried, or had been a widow for over a year.
If you think about it, Charles Brandon more or less did that. Mary had died in the June 1533 and by September 1533 he had married Catherine Willougby. Marriages for love didn’t seem to figure highly or so it seems. Although to me at least K.P must have been deeply in love with Tom Seymour to flout what was expected of her (year of mourning) to marry him just 4 months after Lard Arse popped his clogs, he hadn’t even had chance to start poisoning the daisies, by then.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 17, 2013
9:57 am
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Mimico
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I really wonder why Jane nowdays is pretty much iodolized as the Angel who brought Henry back to the true faith. A women who respected and loved KOA and Mary, who even went as far as bringing Mary back to court and restoring her to the King’s favour (this is a real extract from Youtube). Jane did the exact same thing as Anne yet Jane is called a virtuous women while Anne is the witch and a homewrecker. If anything it is the other way around. Jane was prancing around court, showing of Henry’s necklace to Anne. When Henry sent Jane the money and letter, she played the drama queen, threw herself on the ground and kissed the letter before pretty much saying ‘ Marry me or you are not going to have me”. And why didn’t Jane retrieve to Wulfhall like Anne did if she truly was a virtuous women? Plus people have an annoying way of looking at her through rose-tinted glasses and call her the loyal one. Jane’s was an servant of Anne and so her loyalty should have layed with her. By courting the King, she was openly betraying her. I’m not saying Anne was loyal to KOA because she did eventually betray her but at least Anne showed no interest what so ever in Henry at first and fled to Hever castle. This to me shows a chaste virtuous women, not the showy showy drama Jane liked employing on Henry

September 17, 2013
3:17 pm
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Boleyn
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I can see your point Mimico. It does seem that way to some, but on the other hand if Henry hadn’t of been interested in her other than being a mistress, he wouldn’t have given her the encouragement to flirt and flounce about when he was around with Anne.
As for the neclace business, well Anne would have viewed it in much the same way as KOA did when he was married to her and giving little presents to his latest fancy, although KOA wasn’t quite so blunt as Anne in showing her disfavour toward his fancy woman. As Henry stated to Anne on one occation when she threw a wobbly at him “You must learn to shut your eyes as your betters have done.”
However you can understand Anne’s behaviour, as until she had a son her position was precarious. If the child she was pregnant with in 1536 had gone to term and been a boy, I doubt she would have even given Jane a backwards glance, she would have simply done as KOA did when Henry was lusting after her, put up with Jane and finding a suitable match for her once Henry had, had his fill.
Jane hoped that she could change Henry that was for sure, she believed that Henry loved her enough to listen to her, about the abuses he was carrying out on the church etc, but she underestimated him, and underestimated the strength of his love for her.
I agree she made him see reason about Mary, but only to a point. What she really wanted was to restore the England she knew when she was lady in waiting to KOA, in sort reform the whole kingdom kit and caboodle. It was only Mary’s submission to her father’s absolute will that brought back into favour, and even then Henry was forever questioning her compliance. I don’t think he ever really trusted her 100%, but Henry ever the deciever knew that by keeping Mary sweet, there would be less threat of war from the Catholic faction. Mary had agreed with his demands, so why should the Catholic faction rise in favour of her? In short both Henry and Mary betrayed Jane in a very cruel way.
Henry loved Jane the best so he said but I think that was crap, he only said that because she had given him a son. If that son had died at birth or in infancy or she had borne a girl, and she hadn’t of died he would have got rid of her eventually.
Jane’s death 12 days after Eddy’s birth was tragic, but in some ways it was probably the best thing that could have happened to her. Yes she would be safe, from any plots to be rid of her, but as Anyanka or Sharon pointed out she would be expected to a brood mare for the rest of her life, whilst Henry continued to destroy everything and everyone around her, as well as rogering everything that moved. She would basically end up a very unhappy and unloved woman like KOA.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 17, 2013
9:14 pm
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Boleyn
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Plus look at the way Henry betrayed Jane over the Pilgramage of Grace riots? He invited Robert Aske to court for the Christmas festivities of 1536, made all the right noices in front of him and Jane that, he understood what they were in dispute over etc. Gave all the disenters a free pardon including Aske and promised them that Jane would be crowned as their Queen up in York Minister. Only to turn aroud and kill them all for daring to argue with him, and cancelling Jane’s coronation on the pretence that one there was plague about and then later on on the account of her pregnancy. Although I believe he never intended to crown Jane anyway, whether or not she was pregnant. Henry had crowned both KOA and Anne and because of it, they had been given equal standing by him therefore by crowning Jane it would have made it difficult to drop her like a hot brick when he had had enough of her. KOA had many supporters to her cause just as Anne did, and Henry was determined to never allow another wife to gain influence over his people again.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 18, 2013
4:29 pm
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Olga
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I don’t think it does Anne or Jane any justice when we pit them against each other. Jane and Henry’s dalliance while Anne was pregnant was one of courtly love, there was nothing sexual about it and Jane could hardly have imagined that it would lead to anything at the time.
Jane wasn’t the cause of the marriage breaking down, Anne’s downfall was bafflingly swift on Henry’s part. Jane was in the right (or perhaps wrong) place at the right time. We need to keep in mind neither women had much choice in the matter, just like Katherine Parr, who wanted to marry someone else but had to accept Henry’s hand.
Anne may not have caused the breakdown of his first marriage, but at the end of the day she was by his side for seven years while Katherine of Aragon was all but exiled and treated abominably and Anne never voiced any complaint. The situations are only different in that Anne was murdered, not neglected to death.

I think he would have crowned her Bo, if she had lived. Henry thought of his first two wives as equals, not because they had been crowned, but because he loved them and they shared intellectual passions. Jane really didn’t take that long to get pregnant (although Henry thought so) for someone of her age, I suspect she would have had a successful career in childbirth. That is fairly speculative though, Anne and Katherine both had trouble after the first births so Jane may have had trouble as well, in hindsight we can see the fertility issue were most likely Henry’s but at the time that was difficult to conclude.

September 18, 2013
6:38 pm
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Anyanka
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Mimico said

Jane did the exact same thing as Anne yet Jane is called a virtuous women while Anne is the witch and a homewrecker. If anything it is the other way around. Jane was prancing around court, showing of Henry’s necklace to Anne. When Henry sent Jane the money and letter, she played the drama queen, threw herself on the ground and kissed the letter before pretty much saying ‘ Marry me or you are not going to have me”. And why didn’t Jane retrieve to Wulfhall like Anne did if she truly was a virtuous women?

I get the feeling that Jane and/or her supporters wanted Jane there permanently eta at court I mean…”out of sight, out of mind” kind of thing. Anne was possibly still capable of luring Henry back to her bed in Jane’s abscense or another woman supplant Jane in Henry’s sight. With Jane present, there was the constant drop, drop of hints about the illegality of the Boleyn marriage.

Plus people have an annoying way of looking at her through rose-tinted glasses and call her the loyal one. Jane’s was an servant of Anne and so her loyalty should have layed with her. By courting the King, she was openly betraying her. I’m not saying Anne was loyal to KOA because she did eventually betray her but at least Anne showed no interest what so ever in Henry at first and fled to Hever castle. This to me shows a chaste virtuous women, not the showy showy drama Jane liked employing on Henry

I’d really love to know when exactly Henry started to chase Jane.

IF it happened before January 1536 and Jane WAS a supporter of the marriage to Katherine, then she betrayed her former mistress by doing that.

IF it was after Katherine’s death, then there is room for an arguement that Henry was a widower and free to re-marry. By that logic…why not Jane? Just need to get rid of any loose ends…..

It's always bunnies.

September 18, 2013
6:38 pm
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Sharon
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Anne and Jane were women who caught the eye of Henry VIII. Their choice of yea or nay was taken away from them the minute he looked their way. I mean really, one does not say no to the king. Especially this king!

I think it is easy to fall into the Tudor Trap when we blame one woman or the other for something in which they had little control. What was said so long ago has stuck, and unless we delve into all of the history, we believe Henry’s version of things. Henry wanted us to believe only his words, and from what I can tell until recently, his version was the one everyone believed.

Yes, Anne left court to get away from Henry in the beginning. A lot of good that did her. Henry pursued her relentlessly. And yet, she is still called a home wrecker by some. Jane had no choice either.
Jane, as the perfect wife comes from Henry, as does most of the rotten things that have been said about Anne. (from him and the factions at court) 500 years later there are still people trying to blame one wife or the other for what Henry did to all of them. Jane cannot be blamed for breaking up Anne’s marriage just as Anne cannot be blamed for breaking up Katherine’s marriage.
If we say that Anne betrayed KOA, then we also have to say that Jane did that too. Katherine was very much alive when Jane first caught the eye of Henry. It becomes a vicious cycle of blaming one wife or the other.
As far as I can tell, both of them were at the wrong place at the wrong time. The blame belongs squarely on Henry’s shoulders. In all cases.
These women were in a position where they had little to no choice in any of this.

September 18, 2013
6:43 pm
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Sharon
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Anyanka, you are right. We don’t know when things started happening with Jane. It very well could have started after KOA was gone. I always assumed things were well underway by the time Katherine died.

September 18, 2013
7:51 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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Sharon said

Anne and Jane were women who caught the eye of Henry VIII. Their choice of yea or nay was taken away from them the minute he looked their way. I mean really, one does not say no to the king. Especially this king!

I think it is easy to fall into the Tudor Trap when we blame one woman or the other for something in which they had little control. What was said so long ago has stuck, and unless we delve into all of the history, we believe Henry’s version of things. Henry wanted us to believe only his words, and from what I can tell until recently, his version was the one everyone believed.

Yes, Anne left court to get away from Henry in the beginning. A lot of good that did her. Henry pursued her relentlessly. And yet, she is still called a home wrecker by some. Jane had no choice either.
Jane, as the perfect wife comes from Henry, as does most of the rotten things that have been said about Anne. (from him and the factions at court) 500 years later there are still people trying to blame one wife or the other for what Henry did to all of them. Jane cannot be blamed for breaking up Anne’s marriage just as Anne cannot be blamed for breaking up Katherine’s marriage.
If we say that Anne betrayed KOA, then we also have to say that Jane did that too. Katherine was very much alive when Jane first caught the eye of Henry. It becomes a vicious cycle of blaming one wife or the other.
As far as I can tell, both of them were at the wrong place at the wrong time. The blame belongs squarely on Henry’s shoulders. In all cases.
These women were in a position where they had little to no choice in any of this.

Yep. Basically, virtually everything starts & finishes with Henry, and the ‘blame game’ is often merely smoke-&-mirrors. During Stalin’s decades of leadership, even high-ranking communists used to moan to each other: “If only Comrade Stalin knew about this (injustice/scandal/betrayal)”; Stalin always knew; Henry always knew…

September 18, 2013
11:35 pm
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Anyanka
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Sharon said

Anyanka, you are right. We don’t know when things started happening with Jane. It very well could have started after KOA was gone. I always assumed things were well underway by the time Katherine died.

I have the feeling that Henry started to flirt with Jane during Christmas 1535 season because Anne was pregnant. It wasn’t anything serious…possibly Henry was after a bed-mate..possibly it was just a courtly fliration..

But then we got the trifica of Katherine dying, Henry’s jousting accident and Anne’s miscarriage in the space of just over 3 weeks. Anne may or may not have found Henry and Jane canoodling after his accident…which promated the miscarriage, personally I don’t like that theory but..it does make good fiction!

Those 3 incidents made Henry very concerned especially as many of his fellow rulers now considered him a widower..Gettting rid of Anne in much a permanent way made him truely free to have his heir legitimate…no stain of incest from Katherine…no stain of witch-craft and treason from Anne..

Got to feel sorry for the Poor Love really…having to be begged to re-marry by his own council…./scarasm off…

I must apologise for my speeling today I have a bad cold and the meds are making me loopy..

It's always bunnies.

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