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Jane Seymour the 'kind one'
September 11, 2013
12:43 pm
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Mimico
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O.K This is my first post here and i hope that i don’t sound to stupid!
I was playing the piano when this sudden question popped up; “What did Jane actually do that was kind?”. I known that she begged for the lives of the traitors in the Pilgrimage of Grace but after Henry told her to shut her trap or else the swordsman would be busy again, did she try to help them either indirectly or directly, officially or unofficially? If not, i dont see why Jane deserves the title of ‘the kind one’ out of the six wives. Sure she brang Mary Tudor back to court, but after Mary was forced to sign a document declaring herself a bastard and Henry as the head of the Church of England. At this point Mary had no-one but Jane to declare as the rightful Queen and so that made Jane’s job of re-uniting them so much easier. I suspect that if Katherine of Aragon was still alive at this point, Mary would have treat Jane with comtempt as well and refused her advances like Mary had so adamently did with Anne. So her helping Mary really was not only her, Mary co-operated. As for Elizabeth, Jane didn’t really care for her. It was Mary who looked after Elizabeth and it was also at Mary’s insistence that Elizabeth was at the Christmas celebrations of 1536 and that Elizabeth was clothed for properly. So Jane did not exactly help those to motherless girls on her own did she? Mary co operated and Elizabeth was to little to understand. I have a nagging suspicion that Jane helped Mary only because Jane was even more hated than Anne at the begining. Jane wanted the common people and the powerful nobles to like her and what better way to impress them than restoring their ‘rightful’ princess in Henry’s good graces? Funnily some poeple tend to forget that Mary’s position actually got worse.

As for helping the poor by handing out money it should not be forgotten that both Anne Boleyn and Katherine of Aragon handed out more money to the poor than her.

What do you think about her title as ‘kindness’?

September 12, 2013
9:52 am
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Boleyn
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Firstly, no posts here are considered stupid, we view all of them as questions that need answering and it is good for us all to have a different point of view to ponder over. First postings are always daunting I thought that I would be slammed, by other members and called names to be honest, with my first post. I wasn’t and you will soon find that as your confidence grows and you post more topics of conversation.
Secondly good post, it certainly got me thinking too, about Jane.
For the most part Jane was seen as perhaps a healer. Henry and Anne’s relationship was one of firey passion, Jane was meek and subserviant in fact everything that Anne wasn’t. Henry really only saw Jane as a casual mistress, someone he could go to when Anne’s tempestious nature was too much for him. The old “my wife doesn’t understand me” mistress if you like.
Jane lets face it was very milk and water like, but she did show some spirit in taking Henry on over the issue with the dissolution of the Churches and Mary’s position (or lack there of) within the court. I think that perhaps she hoped to undo the damage that Henry had created. I think she believed as a lot of people believed that Henry’s madness to control both the country and the church, had been put into his head by Anne and that it was her who was solely responsible for the mess he found himself in.
She tried to repair the relationship between Mary and Henry and was ultimely betrayed by both of them. Mary was forced to submit, and Henry told Jane to keep out of his business or risk her head.
She waskind in her way, and certainly she was mourned by her ladies in waiting, Henry’s mourning for her was entirely for his own selfish reasons.
Ultimely she played the role of Queen well, doing eveerything that was expected as a Queen, but as kindnesses go, I don’t think she did much on her own merits, perhaps she was afraid to judging by what happened to her predessors. I think after the incident where she tried so desperately to get Mary recognised etc, and was betrayed by Mary, she learnt to keep her trap shut.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 12, 2013
12:39 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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Boleyn said

Jane lets face it was very milk and water like, but she did show some spirit in taking Henry on over the issue with the dissolution of the Churches and Mary’s position (or lack there of) within the court. I think that perhaps she hoped to undo the damage that Henry had created. I think she believed as a lot of people believed that Henry’s madness to control both the country and the church, had been put into his head by Anne and that it was her who was solely responsible for the mess he found himself in.

Yep, Anne made for a useful scapegoat (still does, to a much lesser extent), just as Mary had a rude awakening when Anne’s absence made very little difference to Henry’s obstinacy. Still, I can’t help feeling that Jane was nudged into supporting primarily Catholic ’causes’ (bringing Mary back, protesting about the Dissolution etc etc).

September 12, 2013
5:57 pm
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Boleyn
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SteveJ said

Boleyn said

Jane lets face it was very milk and water like, but she did show some spirit in taking Henry on over the issue with the dissolution of the Churches and Mary’s position (or lack there of) within the court. I think that perhaps she hoped to undo the damage that Henry had created. I think she believed as a lot of people believed that Henry’s madness to control both the country and the church, had been put into his head by Anne and that it was her who was solely responsible for the mess he found himself in.

Yep, Anne made for a useful scapegoat (still does, to a much lesser extent), just as Mary had a rude awakening when Anne’s absence made very little difference to Henry’s obstinacy. Still, I can’t help feeling that Jane was nudged into supporting primarily Catholic ’causes’ (bringing Mary back, protesting about the Dissolution etc etc).

I agree Steve Jane was very much used a a pawn, by the Catholic faction, who were hoping that Jane’s gentle nature, would be enough to encourage Henry to go back to Rome etc. In which case they were setting themselves for a bloody great fall. Henry was not about to go cap in hand to the Pope and say “Sorry old boy I made a mistake.” not since he had discovered that he could rob the churches of their wealth etc. I also believe that he would have got fed up with Jane even if she had survived childbirth, and would have found a way of divorcing her, without affecting the rights of little Eddy. I wonder is there is any truth in the statement he was alledged to have made when the midwife told him that Jane’s labour was going on too long. I.E Midwife “There is a choice sir, between her grace and the child.” Henry “Let the child live another wife can easily be found.”?
Even it is false somehow I can see Henry saying something like it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 12, 2013
6:04 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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What a horrible twit he was.
I wonder if that remark is apocryphal though, Mrs Bo – in a way, it’s a little reminiscent of the notorious “Kill them all – God will know his own.”

September 12, 2013
8:45 pm
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Boleyn
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Twit is a mild word to describe Henry, Steve or were you thinking of a much stronger word at the time you typed twit? Actually what I am thinking on how to describe Henry in a sentence, would certainly ruffle a few feathers, so I’ll stick to a few well chosen words. A NEWARK, which is an anagram for what he is.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 12, 2013
9:49 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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:D

I sometimes try to give him the benefit of the doubt…but that doesn’t last for long; he’s indefensible.

BTW: I’ve completely changed my mind about The Tudors – I had the set as a present, and now love the show. :)

September 12, 2013
10:32 pm
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Boleyn
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SteveJ said

:D

I sometimes try to give him the benefit of the doubt…but that doesn’t last for long; he’s indefensible.

BTW: I’ve completely changed my mind about The Tudors – I had the set as a present, and now love the show. :)

The Tudors was cleverly done, however at times it did seem a little ott. I found the first Jane very wooden, almost as if she was having trouble with getting to grips with the charater she was playing. Catherine Howard just got right up my bugle. I seriously wanted to jump through the screen and put her over my knee, and give her a good spanking. The girl who played Mary I thought was brilliant she seemed to capture what I believe to be the real Mary. The scene where she told Chapuys that if she ever became Queen she would return England to Rome was wonderful and I believe if in real life Mary had been given just a few more years to rule, she would have succeeded too. I would like to see Showtime, follow up on the Tudors story, with Eddy’s, Mary’s and Elizabeth’s reigns. Would be good to see how they would spice up Elizabeth’s rule, and perhaps do as they did at the end of Henry’s reign get Henry and Anne’s ghosts to visit Elizabeth on her death bed telling her what a sterling job she did of ruling the kingdom, maybe even Mary and Eddy’s ghost to apoligizing for their treatment of her. Eddy disheriting her his death bed in favour of Lady Jane, and Mary locking her up in the tower just because she was jealous of her etc..Showtime would be sure to come up with something juicy if given half the chance. Whatever happens though S.W.M.N.B.N MUST NOT be allowed within a 100 metre cattle prod of it.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 13, 2013
2:30 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

I also believe that he would have got fed up with Jane even if she had survived childbirth, and would have found a way of divorcing her, without affecting the rights of little Eddy.

I seriously doubt Henry would have discarded a legitimate wife who gave him a legitimate son. KoA, AB or Jane was safe as long as her boy lived.. Jane would have spent the rest of her life as a brood mare, dropping child after child until either she was too old, died or Henry died before her.

Henry had spent too much time, energy and the good will of his country to ensure a legal heir without any tarnish on his birth to simply abandon Jane. It would be easier to kill her in child-birth than to under-go yet more legal proceedings . Edward was considered to be the True Heir(tm) by the major secular and religious powers in Europe.

By Henry repudiating his union with Jane , he risked putting doubts on Edward’s parternity and provoking a another Civil war with the Spanish supporting Mary and the French supporting James V..

It's always bunnies.

September 13, 2013
9:21 am
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Bill1978
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I would like to see Showtime, follow up on the Tudors story, with Eddy’s, Mary’s and Elizabeth’s reigns.

The guy who wrote The Tudors also wrote the 2 Cate Blanchett Elizabeth movies. So all that is needed is for them to bridge the years between Henry’s death in The Tudors to Elizabeth’s ascension (which would have a slight overlap with the first movie). I reckon you could have had 2 more years of The Tudors – Season 5 covers Edward and Lady Jane (although technically within the show Jane cannot exist) and Season 6 covers Mary. It’s kinda wierd looking back that for a show called The Tudors it only covered Henry’s reign.

Still would like a more detailed look into Jane’s life

September 13, 2013
2:47 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka. and yeah that is true but I can’t help but wonder what would have happened to Jane if Eddy had died at birth or had died infancy, and Jane had survived. I agree she would have been a brood mare until as you said became too old (and she wasn’t exactly young when Henry fell in love with her) or had died in childbirth.
How would Henry have got shot her? He had used the no son excuse twice before. My guess is that she would have been persuaded to go quietly into a convent (what few were left by the time by the time Henry had finished smashing them up).
She had in front of her the example of her 2 predessors to make sure she would just retire quietly. I.e KOA abandoned and forgotten and Anne chopped up.
Bill I agree it would be interesting to know more about Jane, was she such a doormat as it appears? She really didn’t seem to have much in the way of charisma and yet she captivated a King? To be honest her doormat attitude annoys me somewhat, but then I guess that is down to modern feelings, these days woman have equal rights and have a voice, back then woman were told what to do, told to keep their mouths shut and were expected to squeeze out babies on a yearly basis.
So to me Jane was just too meek, weak and stupid (loosely worded) to do anything but the accepted norm of things. Anne and KOA were very different to each other but in some ways they were alike too, both were go getters and determined to get their own way with things and for the most part they succeeded too. KOA proved herself a capable ruler when Henry was poncing about France showing off, when she or should I say the English army under her command desimated the Scottish king and pruned the big ginger hedge down to size.
The battle of the spurs (so called because the French army ran away) was a joke. I think the French army ran from embarrassment, they just didn’t want to be shown up by a fat wobble bottom jumping about like a kansas city faggot playing at being tin solider.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 13, 2013
6:57 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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Stop sitting on the fence, Bo; or rather, the hedge. :D

September 13, 2013
8:05 pm
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Boleyn
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SteveJ said

Stop sitting on the fence, Bo; or rather, the hedge. :D

LOL well you know me I’m about as subtle as an helicopter on a tennis court.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 15, 2013
2:23 am
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Olga
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They were related actually Bo, distantly, he probably would have tried to find a loophole there. I actually don’t know who issued the dispensation off the top of my head.

Jane is viewed by most with the same rose-coloured glasses that Henry viewed her with. She had his son, and at the time that healed a nation, temporarily. There is not enough information about her to give any real insight into her personality, the little I have read indicated she was actually proud and haughty, though she played her humble card to perfection, and rightly so. I remember Mary sent her cucumbers from her garden, if that is any indication of her relationship. But the fact is Mary was accepted back at court because she gave in to Henry’s demands, not because of anything Jane did. Henry neglecting Elizabeth is a bit exaggerated, her clothing was replaced soon enough. I’m sure Henry was just a bit busy murdering people that week. The wives that truly made steps towards bringing the children together were Anne of Cleves, the little she could manage in such a brief reign and there is really only an indication she was close to Elizabeth, Edward treated her like rubbish, and Katherine Parr. Katherine Parr accomplished the most in that respect.
But at the end of the day, Henry did as Henry wanted. He named the girls his heirs after Edward, no one else did that.

September 15, 2013
8:51 am
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Boleyn
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As it goes Olga Henry was related to all his wives to some degree or other. KOA was named in memory of her grandmother or great grandmother, I forget which at the moment (Brain still asleep) Anyway she was named after Catherine of Lancaster, the daughter of John of Gaunt and his second wife Contance of Castille. So as far as I can gather Henry and KOA were cousins so many times removed. Henry’s father of course claiming (which it was) his decent from Edward the 3rd via John of Gaunt and his third wife Katherine Swynford children.
I agree that Jane did I suppose play a part in reuniting Henry and Mary, but the outcome of it wasn’t quite what she had hoped. I think she was hoping that she would be able to return England to what it was before Anne became Queen, in that she was sorely mistaken. Henry held all the strings now concerning England, and he was not about to give them up now. Mary was bullied into accepting her father as the big cheese at the risk of her life, and Jane was told to shut her trap.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 15, 2013
7:22 pm
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Anyanka
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Olga said

They were related actually Bo, distantly, he probably would have tried to find a loophole there. I actually don’t know who issued the dispensation off the top of my head.

The dispensation was issued by Thomas Cramner. The familiaral relationship between Henry and Jane was complicated by the fact the Ekizabeth Howard and Margery Wentworth sharing a grandmother, but not a grandfather in Elizabeth Cheney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E…..22-1473%29)

Jane is viewed by most with the same rose-coloured glasses that Henry viewed her with. She had his son, and at the time that healed a nation, temporarily. There is not enough information about her to give any real insight into her personality, the little I have read indicated she was actually proud and haughty, though she played her humble card to perfection, and rightly so. I remember Mary sent her cucumbers from her garden, if that is any indication of her relationship. But the fact is Mary was accepted back at court because she gave in to Henry’s demands, not because of anything Jane did. Henry neglecting Elizabeth is a bit exaggerated, her clothing was replaced soon enough. I’m sure Henry was just a bit busy murdering people that week. The wives that truly made steps towards bringing the children together were Anne of Cleves, the little she could manage in such a brief reign and there is really only an indication she was close to Elizabeth, Edward treated her like rubbish, and Katherine Parr. Katherine Parr accomplished the most in that respect.
But at the end of the day, Henry did as Henry wanted. He named the girls his heirs after Edward, no one else did that.

There is so little we know about Jane. Was she pround and haughty or just hiding her feelings of insecurity?

Her rules for clothing of her ladies were stricter than Anne’s. Was that because she was trying to project an image of chasitiy or was she trying to down-play the looks of her ladies to appear better looking herself?

Henry only allowed her limited power. He was tired of his wives being involved in national and inter-national relationships. He didn’t want anyone to come between him and his power any more. Cromwell certainly didn’t have the same pull as Wolsey did.

AoC did appear to have some kind of relationships with Mary and Elizabeth. Edward was too well protected for Anne to have any kind informal meetings with him. But certainly KP’s had a strong bond with all 3 of Henry’s children as well as Jane Grey.

It's always bunnies.

September 16, 2013
12:52 am
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Boleyn
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As far as I can gather Anyanka, Eddy was very stiff and formal towards AOC. I don’t know whether he had much contact with K.H, but I imagine what contact he may have had with her would have been very little, but K.P certainly did play a part in his life.

As for Jane I kind of get the impression, that she modelled herself partly on KOA example of wifely decorum. As she was lady in waiting to both KOA and A.B she probably made mental notes in her head about what type of behaviour got up Henry’s bugle and was determined not to press the wrong buttons, once she became Queen. I wouldn’t say KOA was a nagging wife, but I think at times she probably did frustrate Henry, when she made a suggestion about how to deal with a situation in a much more diplomatic way, than going with his idea of giving the person who had upset him a damn good thrashing. Anne too tried to reason with him, even though he was determined to give whoever had upset him a damn good thrashing and did too, but whenever there were repercussions from it, it was Anne who got the blame.
So Jane learnt from her time as their lady in waiting to keep her trap shut. Perhaps she had hoped by being a “doormat” Henry would perhaps begin to listen to reason and return England to Rome and the Catholic faith. In short use soft words and reasoning to make him see sence about what he was doing not just to England but to his people too.
If she had had a stillborn child or a daughter I’m am sure that Henry would have got rid of her by the end of the year or by the spring of 38.
I’m given to believe that he was already casting his eye around the court as little as 3 or 4 months after his marriage to Jane, and moaning that there were many beauties around the court, that had he seen them before he would not have married Jane. Or words to that affect.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

September 16, 2013
11:15 am
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Mimico
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If she had had a stillborn child or a daughter I’m am sure that Henry would have got rid of her by the end of the year or by the spring of 38.
I’m given to believe that he was already casting his eye around the court as little as 3 or 4 months after his marriage to Jane, and moaning that there were many beauties around the court, that had he seen them before he would not have married Jane. Or words to that affect.

It would seem than Henry was complaining of Jane’s plainess just a mere week or two after the wedding. Henry must have been frustrated at Jane’s inability to become pregnant. I suspect he was already having second thoughts about Anne because Anne was in a continously round of pregnancies during her reign as queen consort. Although Anne was definitely getting old by Tudor standards, she proved herself highly fertile and able to have a healthy child. While Jane seemed as fertile as the Sahara desert! Henry was talking of divorcing Jane before December and she was lucky to become pregnant when she did. If she did not, she would have just been a humiliated ex-wife. I wonder if Henry had anyone lined up after her? Just a question, did Henry treatment of her become any better after the pregnancy? I mean just for her, not the baby. I think i heard somewhere that while Jane was in her confinement chamber, she managed to help a small convent somewhere…

What i found most strange is that fact that Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour are related. They shared the same great-grandma and so Margaret Wentworth (Jane’s mother) and Elizabeth Howard (Anne’s mother) were half-cousins. Also Jane’s mother was also a reported beauty. I wonder how Jane missed out on all of these traits Yell One last question, why wasn’t Jane married before she met the King?

Thxs !

September 16, 2013
2:56 pm
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Anyanka
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Mimico said

If One last question, why wasn’t Jane married before she met the King?

Though the Seymours were an established family, they were by no means rich enough to provide suitable doweries for all of thier daughters. Plus Sir John may have been carrying on a prolonged game of Hide the Sausage with his son Edward’s first wife, Catherine Fillol. Edward had the marriage annuled and she retired to a convent where she died.

It was been popular to write about Jane being the subject of a bethrohal to William Dormer but evidence for that is sketchy especially as he went on to marry another lady Mary Sidney.

It's always bunnies.

September 16, 2013
3:17 pm
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Boleyn
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Mimico, Much the same could be said of KOA too, she got pregnant within weeks of their marriage. It’s very likely that he did have his next victim lined up, probably some forgien match. Jane’s pregnancy scuppered those plans, and her death was a complete shock to him, but I’m given to believe that within weeks if not days of her death he was already looking around for another wife. When K.H was murdered, it was said he was greif stricken, why then did he have a valentine party (loosely worded) the following day? Henry was a vindictive, lecturous moron. (Yes Steve I know. “I am as subtle as a brick end” lol)
Anyanka, I thought after Henry had showed an interest in Jane, William Dormer was proposed as a match for Jane’s sister Dorothy instead?
“Hide the sausage” lol Anyanka. You are getting as bad as me.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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