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If Jane Seymore had survived childbirth...
April 21, 2012
4:39 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don’t know, Jane already gave him a son so that pressure is kind of gone but he’d still probably want more, to be extra secure. I definately think he’d get tired of staying with the same women for a long amount of time but that doesn’t exactly mean he’d set her aside for a new wife, just get a lot of mistresses over the years and maybe have more illegitimate children.(?) I guess it all depends on Henry’s mood towards Jane, everything always depended on that for his wives.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 21, 2012
6:00 pm
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Janet
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I’m sure Henry would have wanted more sons. After all, his brother Arthur had died young. If Jane had girls or miscarriages, I think Henry would have found some way to get rid of her. I wonder if Cromwell would have been the mastermind if he was still alive at that point. It would be rather tricky since Henry would be looking a fool for getting rid of yet another wife. It’s rather ironic that his one and only son died young.

April 21, 2012
10:28 pm
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Anyanka
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Henry was well aware of having a Duke of York in hand as well as legitimate daughters. Those could give him infuence over other countries in the same way as the Habsburg’s were expanding thier sphere of influence over the ruling families in Europe and beyond.

It's always bunnies.

April 22, 2012
7:00 pm
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, he saw how his father was affected by having only 2 sons. He was probably paranoid that if he only had one son then he’d die and he’d be left with only daughters. It IS very ironic that his one and only son died.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 23, 2012
10:56 am
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Olga
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Apparently Henry himself thought he wouldn’t have any children with Jane, earlier on in the marriage. I imagine he would have been happy to try and get rid of her if she didn’t conceive, yet had she survived I think there would have been even more pressure on her to conceive again.
Of course really there was no woman who was truly safe with that man *sigh* I have always thought it was made far worse by the fact that his Mother and Grandmother had very successful childbearing careers.

April 24, 2012
1:09 am
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Anyanka
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Well, one of his grandmothers anyway. Margaret Beaufort only had 1 child at 13 yo….even though she married 3 times afterwards

It's always bunnies.

April 24, 2012
12:36 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Well, one of his grandmothers anyway. Margaret Beaufort only had 1 child at 13 yo….even though she married 3 times afterwards

M.B, had a bit of trouble when giving birth to Henry, and was quite weak for a while afterwards, and I rather think that perhaps that was what caused her to become infertile. There was a rumour that M.B’s mum was told that her daughter’s life was in danger because of the difficult time she was having, and her mother said that the child must be spared, even if it mmeant the deat of M.B to do it. History has a habit of repeating and the same thing was said to Stinky, when Jane was giving birth, I think Henry said something like “save the child, another wife can easily be found”
That doesn’t sound like a man who deeply loved his wife. The reality however was very different and no princess of any standing wanted anything to do with Stinky, after Jane’s death. Can you blame them? AOC perhaps didn’t know the full facts about Stinky, which is why Cromwell used her in his own game of chance. They say ignorance is bliss. I said in a previous posting, that Cleves being a very small province and not one of the big batters, perhaps hadn’t heard of what happened in England, between KOA,AB and JS, and what information they did get was very diluted.
Anyway I do rather think that Stinky would have got bored with Jane eventually, yes she was safe from suffering the fate Anne had and KOA’s lonely and heartbreaking death, but I think Stinky would have found some way of getting rid of her, perhaps persuading her to enter a convent, or maybe even poisioning her, to get her out of the way? She proved by Edward’s birth that she wasn’t as strong as he thought she was, as even if she had survived childbirth she may not of been capable of bearing anymore children.
Either way if Jane had survived etc, Stinky needed more than one son. Poor Edward carried the whole Tudor dynasty on his shoulders, and I believe that although healthy, in his youth, once he became King the pressure of that duty became too much for him to cope with and he in short worried himself to death, hope that makes sence.. Stinky didn’t help matters either by wrapping the kid up in cotton wool, and not allowing him to do things that kids do, getting into fights, getting dirty etc. Edward’s life was an endless round of “You can’t do that because of…”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 24, 2012
2:29 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don’t think Beaufort wanted any children after her son, god who would especially after being in labor for hours or was it days?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 24, 2012
3:32 pm
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Boleyn
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I think Jane’s labour stated on the 9th of October. 3 days labour, poor duck.. However I was in labour for 4 days with my eldest daughter so I have every sympathy for Jane, and at least when the doctor’s did decide to send me down for an emergency C section, I knew I would be in safe hands. Poor Jane didn’t have that choice.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 24, 2012
9:01 pm
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Sharon
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I don’t think Margaret B could have children after Henry. I think his birth tore her insides so that she couldn’t have them.

April 25, 2012
12:12 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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I’ve always understood Margaret Beaufort was too small and underdeveloped when she gave birth to Henry. But what can one expect when a 12 year old girl is married off and permitted sexual relations. The birth was difficult, and there were concerns for the lives of mother and baby. Thankfully, they both came through the ordeal. Margaret was a major force in her son’s life, and was an amazing woman in her lifetime.

Since I have never given birth, I cannot understand the pain and fear either Jane or Margaret went through. I feel great compassion and empathy for both woman, especially given the vicarious nature of maternal medicine then (and even now, to some extent). It seems in reading about Jane’s difficult labour, the odds were against her.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

April 25, 2012
7:44 am
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Elliemarianna
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Ahh labour is over rated, I’d take that over toothache any day! Wink

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

April 25, 2012
5:18 pm
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Mya Elise
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LOL, If I ever have children I think i’ll be more terrifed than the pain of it more than anything. When my sister had my nephew I wasn’t there although I wanted to be but my mother was and she told me that my sister (Aub) was begging my mother to do it for her. And I’ve seen those horrifying tapes of women giving birth and it’s basically terrified of it all together. And if the pain is that bad then I have alot of respect for Margaret Beaufort, wasn’t she in labor for like 2 days?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 25, 2012
5:52 pm
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Maggyann
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I knew where babies came from and all that but not much else so when in basic training at RAF Hereford many years ago we were shown a film of a woman giving birth I fainted clean away, not my finest moment!!!
I never did have any children but I don’t think it was a conscious decision I just never got pregnant. I’d have got the chop from Henry PDQ!
What Jane went through over two days I can’t begin to imagine.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

April 25, 2012
7:17 pm
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Boleyn
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Elliemarianna said

Ahh labour is over rated, I’d take that over toothache any day! Wink

Ellie I have a freind who is the mother to 8 kids, and she told me, that when she had her first one it was bad, but after that it’s just like shelling peas. LOL, I suppose you could say she’s right too as she was always up and about only a few hours after she had any of her children. It was almost like a walk in the park for her..
I had all mine by C section, and 2 of them were born 6 weeks early, weighing literely a bag of sugar, it’s amazing just how far medical science has progressed. If only the medical benefits we have now where around then, Jane perhaps would have lived to produce further children, or even Old stinky’s health issues would have been cured too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 25, 2012
7:21 pm
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Boleyn
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Mya Elise said

Yeah, he saw how his father was affected by having only 2 sons. He was probably paranoid that if he only had one son then he’d die and he’d be left with only daughters. It IS very ironic that his one and only son died.

Baby Mya came out of her nest box today, she has a fondness for oranges. Although she got very messy with it, so mum was a bit cross with her. I’m afraid poor Mya was picked up by her backside and taken back into the box to have a good wash and brush up…

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 25, 2012
8:45 pm
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Elliemarianna
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Mya Elise said

LOL, If I ever have children I think i’ll be more terrifed than the pain of it more than anything. When my sister had my nephew I wasn’t there although I wanted to be but my mother was and she told me that my sister (Aub) was begging my mother to do it for her. And I’ve seen those horrifying tapes of women giving birth and it’s basically terrified of it all together. And if the pain is that bad then I have alot of respect for Margaret Beaufort, wasn’t she in labor for like 2 days?

It isn’t actually as bad as you think, I was terrified but honestly when your there your head is in a different place. The pain has a good reason so that makes it bearable. I can honestly say I had a really bad tooth infection which was far more painful than childbirth!

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

April 25, 2012
11:53 pm
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Anyanka
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Elliemarianna said

Mya Elise said

LOL, If I ever have children I think i’ll be more terrifed than the pain of it more than anything. When my sister had my nephew I wasn’t there although I wanted to be but my mother was and she told me that my sister (Aub) was begging my mother to do it for her. And I’ve seen those horrifying tapes of women giving birth and it’s basically terrified of it all together. And if the pain is that bad then I have alot of respect for Margaret Beaufort, wasn’t she in labor for like 2 days?

It isn’t actually as bad as you think, I was terrified but honestly when your there your head is in a different place. The pain has a good reason so that makes it bearable. I can honestly say I had a really bad tooth infection which was far more painful than childbirth!

Good ol’ Princess Margaret in Swindon made me spend 2 days from the first pessary to the actual sprong appearing in labour…sure they only counted from them beaking the waters to sprog-drop which was only 21 hours. During which time I was drugged up due to getting MRSA infection, an epidural and goodness knows what else…..

2 & 3 were epidural alll the way baby!

It's always bunnies.

April 26, 2012
2:18 am
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Olga
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Boleyn said
I think Stinky would have found some way of getting rid of her, perhaps persuading her to enter a convent, or maybe even poisioning her, to get her out of the way? She proved by Edward’s birth that she wasn’t as strong as he thought she was, as even if she had survived childbirth she may not of been capable of bearing anymore children.
Either way if Jane had survived etc, Stinky needed more than one son. Poor Edward carried the whole Tudor dynasty on his shoulders, and I believe that although healthy, in his youth, once he became King the pressure of that duty became too much for him to cope with and he in short worried himself to death, hope that makes sence.. Stinky didn’t help matters either by wrapping the kid up in cotton wool, and not allowing him to do things that kids do, getting into fights, getting dirty etc. Edward’s life was an endless round of “You can’t do that because of…”

You know I think Henry would have gone the Anne Boleyn route with he’d wanted to divorce her. Maybe not for adultery but he could have easily fabricated something for treason along with her brothers. Maybe I just think that because Edward had them both executed. But I can’t see Henry using poison for some reason. He always thought he was so justified in executing people he wouldn’t need to be sneaky about it.

Henry treated Edward pretty much the same way he was treated after Arthur died, which is odd, because he hated not being able to participate in normal “boyish” things, yet he did exactly the same to his own son. I always think it’s a terrible shame he never got to see any of Elizabeth’s reign and see how a woman could rule a country.

April 26, 2012
12:13 pm
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Boleyn
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Olga said

Boleyn said
I think Stinky would have found some way of getting rid of her, perhaps persuading her to enter a convent, or maybe even poisioning her, to get her out of the way? She proved by Edward’s birth that she wasn’t as strong as he thought she was, as even if she had survived childbirth she may not of been capable of bearing anymore children.
Either way if Jane had survived etc, Stinky needed more than one son. Poor Edward carried the whole Tudor dynasty on his shoulders, and I believe that although healthy, in his youth, once he became King the pressure of that duty became too much for him to cope with and he in short worried himself to death, hope that makes sence.. Stinky didn’t help matters either by wrapping the kid up in cotton wool, and not allowing him to do things that kids do, getting into fights, getting dirty etc. Edward’s life was an endless round of “You can’t do that because of…”

You know I think Henry would have gone the Anne Boleyn route with he’d wanted to divorce her. Maybe not for adultery but he could have easily fabricated something for treason along with her brothers. Maybe I just think that because Edward had them both executed. But I can’t see Henry using poison for some reason. He always thought he was so justified in executing people he wouldn’t need to be sneaky about it.

Henry treated Edward pretty much the same way he was treated after Arthur died, which is odd, because he hated not being able to participate in normal “boyish” things, yet he did exactly the same to his own son. I always think it’s a terrible shame he never got to see any of Elizabeth’s reign and see how a woman could rule a country.

Good point Olga, although going down the A.B route again to get rid of Jane, would have perhaps jepodised, Edward’s claim to the throne. How would Stinky justify that Jane had alledgely cuckoled him etc, and then still said but that ok Edward is my son no worries, and still chopped Jane’s head off. I agree Henry wasn’t sneaky about doing things, but he could be sadistic. Cromwell learnt that only too well, as Stinky granted him the Earldom of Essex etc one day and then had him arrested the next day.
I think it would be perhaps more likely that he would have persuaded her to enter a convent, that way Edward would still be King.
Poor Edward I do feel so sorry for the little chap, if only he had been allowed to do what other kids do, I think the whole of history would have been different. Although, who would he have married, Would it be the Scots Queen? or Lady Jane Grey? or perhaps one of the French Princesses.
I don’t think his life could have been easy, as his father must have frightened him with his erasible, and volatile temper tantrums. Did Edward actually have a father/son relationship with his father? I rather get the impression that Stinky viewed Edward as a disappointment.. in the sence that Edward wasn’t like him in his youth. But whose fault was that? Wrap a kid up in cotton wool and that what you get Stinky.
I rather think that Stinkies idea of a son was someone like Elizabeth, hence the reason why he was so annoyed at Anne for giving him a girl instead of a boy.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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