If Jane Seymore had survived childbirth... | Page 2 | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
If Jane Seymore had survived childbirth...
November 25, 2011
10:12 am
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I don't think Henry leaving Katherine is anything to celebrate but it's what happened and Henry used the age gap thing against her all the time.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 25, 2011
1:40 pm
Avatar
Bill1978
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 476
Member Since:
April 9, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

…Nevermind…removed my thoughts

November 26, 2011
11:36 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Elliemarianna said:

 At least Anne didn’t actively encourage the King to commit the murder of Catherine or her daughter. 

 

Anne may not have been encouraging the king to commit murder but Chapuys said Anne was actively seeking the death of KOA and Mary:

 “I don't suppose the King but the Concubine (who has often sworn the death of both, and who will never be at rest till she has gained her end, suspecting that owing to the King's fickleness there is no stability in her position as long as either of the said ladies lives), will have even better means than before of executing her accursed purpose by administering poison, because they would be less on their guard; and, 'moreover, she might do it without suspicion, for it would be supposed when the said ladies had agreed to everything that the King wished and were reconciled and favorably treated after they had renounced their rights, there could be no fear of their doing any mischief, and thus no suspicion would arise of their having received foul play.”

From: 'Henry VIII: January 1536, 21-25', Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 10: January-June 1536 (1887), pp. 47-64
 
 So, according to Chapuys, Anne was actively contemplating murder.  If we are to believe Chapuys' statements that Jane was whispering in the king's ear for the removal, and/or the death of Anne, then don't we have to believe him when he claims Anne was searching for a way to kill KOA and Mary? I don't buy much of anything Chapuys wrote home about.  He was a gossip. These stories came to him secondhand or he made stories up. (as I think he did with the quote I put above)  He only cared about Jane because he thought she could bring Mary back to court. 
 
We don't know for sure if Jane whispered in Henry's ear that Anne should be removed.  Chapuys says Carew was trying to persuade Jane and her friends to accomplish Anne's ruin.  Not that she did it.  I'm not convinced that Jane had to say anything to Henry.  It just seems to me that by Jane pestering him with Anne's removal Henry would have gotten pissed off.  He didn't want another woman whispering in his ear.  We don't know that she told Henry Anne must die.  All we know is that Henry chose her to be his next wife.  That's unfortunate for any woman.
 
I agree with Bill, the men of Henry's court saw a way of ending the hold Anne had on him by placing Jane in his path. We certainly know that the men around Jane wanted an end to Anne's influence.  Henry was already disenchanted with Anne; and Jane was the perfect bait.
I also agree with Ellie.  Jane did know what her faction was trying to accomplish.  Her part in the downfall was to distract Henry and keep his head turned away from Anne, and she did a bang-up job.  By the time the verdict in the trial of Anne came around, Jane certainly knew Anne was going to die.  Maybe she believed Henry when he talked of Anne's betrayal.  Anne more than likely believed Henry when he said his marriage to Katherine was a sin in God's eyes. 
 I can't condemn Jane anymore than I can condemn Anne for the way they made it to the throne. At least Anne loved the king. I don't believe Jane was in love with Henry.
 
Which leads me back to the original question.  Yes, Jane and Henry would have stayed married after Edward's birth.  No, she would not have been happy.  I don't think she ever was.  At least she would have her son with her for awhile. I think she would want more children.  Yes, Henry would cheat on her and she would look the other way, probably thanking her God that he went to someone else. 
November 26, 2011
11:47 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Wow, Sorry about the lengthy answer.  Can anyone tell me why my posts keep showing up in the purple color?  I hit “quote and reply,” then I skip down a few lines to answer and it still appears in the purple.  What am I doing wrong?

November 26, 2011
1:11 pm
Avatar
Elliemarianna
Corsham, Wiltshire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 316
Member Since:
June 7, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Jane did what she was told, so I'm sure she whispered in Henry's ear. Carew wasn't the only person telling her to speak openly to the King about Anne, and no doubt they would have nagged her if she didn't do as she was told. Chapys supported Jane, so I don't see why he would lie about her. With Anne, he lied because he wanted to blacken her name.

“…but the Concubine (who has often sworn the death of both, and who will never be at rest till she has gained her end, suspecting that owing to the King's fickleness there is no stability in her position as long as either of the said ladies lives)” – I'm sure Anne had said some things like this, considering it was true that while Catherine lived, Henry could go back to her, and they were a threat to her.  Anne had a sting in her tail, we all know that, but she obviously didn't act on it. Anne probably let of steam verbally.

If Henry would listen to anyone telling him his dearly beloved wife was a adulterous witch, I'm sure he would most likely believe his next bit of skirt, more than an ambitious courtier… It made sense that 'innocent, naive and pious' Jane was the one to bring it up. 

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

November 26, 2011
6:00 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 You are probably right about Carew and Co.  No, it wasn’t only Carew, but he had a lot to do with getting the Catholic faction together.  I’m sure they were all over Jane to do as she was told.

 Henry didn’t need to listen to another woman telling him Anne was a treachorous, adulterous witch.  According to him, he already knew it.  I always look at Henry as the real culprit working against Anne.  He was doing fine on his own.  He was in love with Jane and wanted to marry her.  Jane wouldn’t necessarily have to say anything. With everyone else telling Henry that Anne was the worst wife ever, they made Jane’s job of winning his heart much easier. Yes, I will admit that Jane had a large roll to play.  But she could very well have accomplished that by being the sweet innocent Henry thought she was. 

 I don’t believe Chapuys would lie.  He repeated gossip and he exaggerated what he heard. Yes, Anne certainly wished all Spaniards at the bottom of the sea; but she did not search for a means to kill Katherine and Mary. That was Chapuys’ opinion and not a fact. 

I guess it depends on who is to blame for Anne’s downfall.  I cannot believe she would have fallen had Henry not desired it.  I put the blame squarely on his shoulders. 

 
November 27, 2011
12:34 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Henry wanted her gone and Cromwell knew this so he made it happen and gathered all the rumors to throw at her – just to make it harder for Anne to prove herself innocent. I blame it all on Henry but it wasn't just him completely.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 28, 2011
11:09 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said:

Wow, Sorry about the lengthy answer.  Can anyone tell me why my posts keep showing up in the purple color?  I hit “quote and reply,” then I skip down a few lines to answer and it still appears in the purple.  What am I doing wrong?

When you skip down a few lines, check to see if the block quote function is still highlighted in the toolbar above. If it is, your answer will be purple also. Click on the block quote to inactivate it. You should also notice the first line of your reply changes so that it isn't indented anymore.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

November 29, 2011
10:16 am
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you, Carolyn.

December 28, 2011
11:30 am
Avatar
WelshieHollie
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
December 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I think Jane Seymour was forced into gaining Henry's attention by her family and enemies of Anne. I think if she had survived childbirth she would phave had a strong say on how the children would be brought up and on other matters not too far as to provoke Henry. I think she would have put up with the mistresses to come but knowing that she was safe. I think Jane would have encouraged Henry to be alot nearer his children from the previous marriages.

February 4, 2012
3:15 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mya Elise said:

Henry wanted her gone and Cromwell knew this so he made it happen and gathered all the rumors to throw at her – just to make it harder for Anne to prove herself innocent. I blame it all on Henry but it wasn’t just him completely.

Interesting thoughts here.. Yes I agree that Henry wanted rid of Anne, but although we all know this it was really Cromwell's poison that got rid of Anne, Henry couldn't have cared less how it was done, as long as it was done.

Yes Henry tried to blacken Anne's name, but it was Cromwell who took all the blame for Anne downfall and death

Henry just went along with it..

As for Jane, I believe she was just another pawn in a game of chess, yes she might have poured some poison in Henry's ears over Anne, but he probably already had heard what was being said or invented around the court about Anne. So by Jane repeating these lies just made Henry want to believe them anyway. In this respect this made Jane no better than Anne over the Wolsey affair.

It does seem very strange to me that when the gossip concerning Catherine Howard first surfaced, Henry at first dismissed them as jealous rumours, and that it was only after Cranmer mentioned the name Derham, that Henry ordered an investigation into Catherine's Behaviour.

Now back to Jane, yes I believe Edward's birth would have meant that she was safe, as again like Bessie Blount, and possibly Mary Boleyn, she proved that he was capable of having sons, but would have been faithful to her because of this? No he wouldn't. A wife's duty was to produce as many children as possible, so even if Jane had survived childbirth by the time she had been churched etc, she would most likely be pregnant again very shortly after.

Henry would have continued to play the field, and Jane would have had to put up with his various affairs and lump it basically.

Mya Elise: I love the way you end some of your postings with “just a theory of mine”.. Sweetheart that's what these forums are for we all put forward our thoughts and feelings, and theory's about what did and didn't go on. We none of us will ever really know what went on in the Tudor courts, but it's good for us to vent our spleen over what we think may have gone on, so you keep theorying all you like…

It's also nice to see some Gentlemen on here. Nice to think that there some male champions for Anne Boleyn too..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 5, 2012
9:07 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LOL, Boleyn, I always end my posts that way cause I think sometimes my “theories” may offend others and I in no way want anyone to feel offended or like I don't respect their opinions, cause I do. Everyone has them…like I don't eat steak but alot of others do, but that doesn't mean it makes me or them bad people for liking or not liking steak. (May not be te best example!)Confused

But, anyways, my opinions on Jane are so mixed and they change all the time! Sometimes I think she's a an calculating evil witch but other times I feel like maybe she was just a pawn and maybe I'm not being very fair towards her. It depends on what day I decide to read this or that or watch this so it's like always….confusing for me. When it comes to Anne though i'll always love her the most and be on her side but that doesn't mean that all the other wives are horrible and I don't like them,no.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

February 6, 2012
10:15 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mya Elise said:

LOL, Boleyn, I always end my posts that way cause I think sometimes my “theories” may offend others and I in no way want anyone to feel offended or like I don’t respect their opinions, cause I do. Everyone has them…like I don’t eat steak but alot of others do, but that doesn’t mean it makes me or them bad people for liking or not liking steak. (May not be te best example!)Confused

But, anyways, my opinions on Jane are so mixed and they change all the time! Sometimes I think she’s a an calculating evil witch but other times I feel like maybe she was just a pawn and maybe I’m not being very fair towards her. It depends on what day I decide to read this or that or watch this so it’s like always….confusing for me. When it comes to Anne though i’ll always love her the most and be on her side but that doesn’t mean that all the other wives are horrible and I don’t like them,no.

Strangely enough you aren't on your own, when it comes to meat.. I won't eat pork I hate it, but I will eat bacon,(smoked) and will only eat smoked, honey roasted or Bavarian ham otherwise forget it.

Yep I agree with you 100% all the way about Anne she's my heroine. The other wives had their merits, and each give us a different view to how the Tudor court was during their tenures, but Anne impression on the court left a lasting reminder of a woman who wielded supreme power, which is still felt today over 500 years later. Perhaps Henry was right in calling her witch LOL. Catherine of Aragon we know a lot about because of who she was and where she came from, but from the time Anne appeared until her death she injected something into history that simply cannot be washed away. Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard,and Katherine Parr, really didn't do that much and their only real claim to fame is that they were all wives of Henry 8th, Jane seymour giving Henry his only living son was enough I suppose to cement her claim to fame, Anne of Cleves was know as the disgarded and unwanted wife Catherine Howard being the cousin of Anne Boleyn maybe might give her a little more notareity,than her predessors and that she met the same sorry end as Anne but not much more than that Katherine Parr, well ok she cemented the family back together and and ruled as regent whilst Henry went to France, but apart from that there wasn't the magic that Anne managed to spin around the court..

I often wonder just what it was that drove Henry to pull apart and a kingdom for Anne only to turn around and rip it all to shreds again to get rid of her?

I guess your've seen the two part drama starring Ray Winstone? There is a scene there when Anne comes to the court to ask for the kings blessing to marry Henry Percy? When she looks up to Henry you can see a sort of power come from Helena's (Anne's) eyes which seems to completely bewitch him to the point where he tell's Wolsey to break the match.. I wonder if this was the case in real life? and that was exactly how it happened? There is also the scene when they are dancing together just after they get married where the love between them is so strong that it seems like a match made in heaven.. Yeah I know that both Ray and Helena are playing parts, but how do we know again that this was exactly how it was between them.. I wish I could get hold of that music they are dancing to it's beautiful..

Anyway I've got to go and rustle up some food,  hungry dinosaurs (That's what I call my husband because he is) and kids tend to make a low whining noise which only seems to stop when they are sat at the table eating..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 6, 2012
5:48 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yeah, I love ketchup but refuse to eat tomatos, it's so odd! LOL.

I think all the wives had very interesting qualities and had their…what's the word? Specialness? Uniquness? Like I admire Katherine of Aragon's will power and strength, and despite my overall support for Anne, I silently rooted to Katherine to not give up and keep her head up but then again sometimes I feel like maybe if she had giving up things might have been better for everyone. And Jane Seymour, well um, she did give Henry a son and at least she died before he started to hate her too, she dogded the pain Katherine and Anne went through with watching a husband cheat and betray them….that's something. Not meaning to be unfair towards Jane but seriously that's all she did. Anna of Cleves may not of had a huge story or whatever but she did get out the marriage safely and probably lived a nice life afterwards. Katheryn Howard also wasn't known for much except the life ending affair and being Anne's cousin and also being the 2nd wife executed, I've read that Katheryn was kind and was open hearted which is something, a good something too. And Catherine Parr wrote a book! That was simply amamzing for the era she lived in where women were only known to marry and bear children, I think Anne would have admired her alot since Anne was all for women being able to do everything men could. Catherine Parr and Anne were both very smart and had a little feminist in them.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

February 6, 2012
6:38 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

KP was a published author* in a time where women weren't educated. That is cause to celebrate her life…Plus she was influenatial in the education of both Elizabeth and Jane Grey. That she supported female education beyond the traditional wifey-stuff into the male preserve set the trend for future generations.

 

* Though had she not been queen, she almost certainly have not been published.

It's always bunnies.

February 6, 2012
6:43 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mya Elise said:

 And Catherine Parr wrote a book! That was simply amamzing for the era she lived in where women were only known to marry and bear children, I think Anne would have admired her alot since Anne was all for women being able to do everything men could. Catherine Parr and Anne were both very smart and had a little feminist in them.

ITA. I'm sure Anne would have found KP her intellectual equal, especially where religion was concerned.

It's always bunnies.

February 7, 2012
7:37 am
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yeah, Anne and Catherine would've gotten along great…they had alot in common and wasn't Catherine like another mother figure for Elizabeth? If so, then theres another common interest meaning their love for Elizabeth.

If they only had met….Confused

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

February 7, 2012
1:17 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 Katherine Parr had a book published while Henry was alive and a second published after his death.  The first book was, “Prayers of Meditation.”  The second was “The Lamentations of a Sinner.”  Yes, I think Anne and Katherine Parr would have gotten along well together as long as Henry wasn't involved. 

February 7, 2012
8:15 pm
Avatar
Mya Elise
Ohio,US
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 781
Member Since:
May 16, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes! Exactly, as long as Henry wasn't involved.

See I don't like saying this but sometimes I think that if Henry had died that day he fell off his horse then maybe it would of been better for alot of people including Anne and the rest of the wives who had to deal with him. But then again sooo much would of been different and he obviously didn't die for a reason. I don't know, I just like thinking about all the different possibilities…

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 21, 2012
3:20 pm
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You know I was just thinking about this topic after I finished my Jane Seymour book. The author (Elizabeth Norton) mentioned several times that Jane had died just as she finally became secure, and that as the Mother of his heir she would never have been cast aside.
You know I’m not sure about that. I think if she had continued to successfully give birth to more children she would have been. But I think if she had the experiences Katherine and Anne did in childbirth I think Henry would have found a way to get rid of her as well.
Henry’s obsession with having children didn’t seem to wane with his next wives, after all it really would have been better to have at least one other male heir with the mortality rate in children in those days. He was always disappointed in Katherine Howard for not conceiving, and (I’m not sure of the exact wording) but in his will he made a provision for the succession for children he might have with other wives, while he was married to Katherine Parr (!)
So what do you guys think? If jane hadn’t been able to conceive again do you think he would have found a way to set her aside?

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427586

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1711

Posts: 23075

Newest Members:

Goldyy, klftault, Opilacetault, 415berna, modwynVom, Thelmaaledo

Administrators: Claire: 959