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If Jane Seymore had survived childbirth...
November 21, 2011
3:27 pm
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bree
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How do you think her story would have turned out?  Would she have ended up as disposable as the other queens of the Court?

November 21, 2011
6:39 pm
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Mya Elise
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I think Henry would of had a wandering eye sooner or later, no matter how happy he was about baby Edward i have no doubt in my head that he would of tired of Jane, no disrespect towards Edward but Jane definately. I think he also would of continued to make baby after baby and use Jane as a baby making machine for more sons and maybe just maybe he would tolerate another girl only if he had sons. And i have no doubt in my mind that Jane would of taken in no matter what because as long as Henry had sons off of her then Jane probably would of been safe. I think Henry would keep her as a wife because she gave him children and never questioned him or challenged him so she was the 'perfect' wife, basically. But despite that i think he would not be faithful, he is incapable of it, sorry but Henry would of cheated.

This is only a tiny thought or theory, not saying this is what definately would of happened (obviously i'm not a time teller or whatever).

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 22, 2011
3:02 am
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Elliemarianna
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I think Jane would have been safe, as long as Edward lived… I have no doubts what so ever, that Henry would of cheated on Jane though – Jane would have the constant fear of another 'Anne Boleyn' coming along. Jane would probably put up with Henry's cheating though, so would maybe win his respect as Katherine had done for 'shutting her eyes and enduring'. I don't think Jane would be happy though, as no doubt they would begin living separate lives as Henry and Katherine had done – once she had fulfilled her purpose…

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

November 22, 2011
3:53 am
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Bill1978
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Jane would have survived for sure. She gave Henry the one thing that caused him to turn England upside down – a son. She guaranteed the Tudor line was safe from civil fighting. Of course she would be safe in my opinion. She was the mother of the future King of England. Have a look at how the current British Royal family treated the divorces of Charles/Diana and Andrew/Sarah. Diana got to keep her title and a 'household' because she was the mother of a future King of England, Sarah was tossed aside like a ragdoll because her children mean nothing to the royal succession.

All of this though doesn't mean Henry would have remain faithful to Jane.

November 22, 2011
4:50 am
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Neil Kemp
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Bill, I think you'll find that the treatment of both Sarah and Diana had a great deal to do with other factors that were outside of the scope of the gender of the children they had given birth to. However, as this is probably the wrong site to debate this, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this aspect of the modern royal family.

November 22, 2011
7:28 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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 Henry would have remained marry to Jane. Would it have been a happy marriage? Probably not. Would Henry cheat? Of course, he cheated on both KOA and Anne. He would not stop with Jane. Would Henry's reverence for Jane remain? Probably. She was the mother of his son, so she would hold a certain power position in Henry's life. Mind, her power wold never have equalled that of either KOA or Anne, since Henry learned a hard lesson with those women. But, Jane could always present her son to Henry. The future King of England, and remind Henry of her position.The son he fought so hard for. Jane provided him with the continuance of the Tudor line. I am not suggesting Jane would have the control over Henry that Anne did. Her position would be to remain the perfect wife.

I imagine Jane's life, though, would not be very happy. Married to a man she did not love, and who did not love her in return. A son who would be taken away and raised away from court. She may have had other children. I hope she would have, at least another son to appease Henry.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

November 22, 2011
10:19 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah that the sad part, Jane probably would of never been happy. Her life would probably be the exact same as Katherine of Aragon's – Enduring countless mistresses and Henry's short temper and all that stuff. I don't think Jane was as strong as KOA though and she would of endured it without any complaints. She was safe cause she gave the tyrant King a son but he still would of treated her badly and never would of respected her fully because she had no voice what so ever, she let him pick on her and felt like as long as she didn't say anything or do anything she was safe. Jane wouldn't of been a happy wife but she would of remained Henry's wife & Queen. Safe but unhappy and i guess to people back then, that was a good life to live.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 22, 2011
6:13 pm
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Bill1978
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Bill, I think you'll find that the treatment of both Sarah and Diana had a great deal to do with other factors that were outside of the scope of the gender of the children they had given birth to.

 

I totally agree Neil. I was just trying to find some sort of analogy that would help with the hypothetical and it was the best I could find that I was aware of. I still stand my claim that Jane would have survived regardless of Henry's emotions due to her being the mother of the future Queen of England, the same way Diana 'survived' because she was the mother of the future King of England.

November 22, 2011
8:11 pm
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Anyanka
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Exactly, Jane would have been Henry's  son-bearing wife. He would expect her to out-perform the Duggars with legitimate children and still have his ladies of pleasure.  Jane would be expected to ignore these fleeting past-times.

 

However I think Jane was as pragmatic as KoA especially if she was in a powerful position as the PoW's mother. She would rule her personal sphere of influence with an iron hand in a velvet glove.

 

Both Norton and Weir mantion how Jane wanted her ladies to dress, modestly. She didn't intend to have another Bessie, Mary, Anne or Jane to tempt her waywood hubby. Had she lived, maybe she would throw a few temptations in Henry's way like Anne did.

It's always bunnies.

November 23, 2011
3:55 am
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Bill1978
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I can’t find the edit button but I just wanted to say I meant Jane was the mother of the future KING of England not QUEEN. Oops.

November 23, 2011
4:10 am
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Elliemarianna
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At the end of the day, Jane knew what she was doing. Like Chapys said, even he actively encouraged her to entice the kings affection away from Anne. Jane married him to get rid of Anne and stop the reformation, not out of love. She went lower than Anne did in her ambitions, stepping over the hardly cold body of Anne. In my opinion, that forfeits the right to happiness. At least Anne didn't actively encourage the King to commit the murder of Catherine or her daughter.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

November 23, 2011
8:06 am
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Mya Elise
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I didn't know Chapuys encouraged Jane to do that. I wouldn't of felt any sympathy if i knew that. Whoops. Sorry.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 23, 2011
2:46 pm
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Bill1978
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At least Anne didn't actively encourage the King to commit the murder of Catherine or her daughter.

And Jane did? Even reading the statement about Chapuys implies that all that was asked of Jane was to divert his attention away from Anne. Not encourage the king to kill his wife. Didn't Jane only catch Henry's eye during the time Anne was pregnant? I've always seen the interest in Jane stemming from the fact that religious law said the husband was not allowed to lie with his wife while she was pregnant. And being the King he could do whatever he wanted. The fact that Anne caught Henry with Jane which apparently may have led to a miscarriage, just paved the way for other men in the court to start the dirt kicking on Anne to get their own opinion and views in front of the King. I've always seen Jane as being more of a pawn in 'men's business' (like most of Henry's wives).

Sure an argument could be thrown about that Jane was activiley preparing for her wedding before Anne was dead and whatnot, but let's say she bought up the issue with Henry of 'Just send her to a nunnery don't kill her'. I know what Henry's response would have been, which would have been enough for me to shut up and go look at dresses. It was the men of the court who developed the crazy accusations levelled at Anne, it was the men of the court room who said she must die. Not Jane, she was just the pretty thing meant to amuse Henry while Anne was pregant.

I know Anne was a very free spirited and independent woman, but I do wonder what Anne would have been like if she was Wife #3,4,5 or 6. The Henry of the later wives was very different to the Henry of Wife 1 & 2. After Anne's death Henry really became the tyrant of legend, doing what ever he wanted cause he honestly believed he was God's vessel on Earth. I think even the fiery Anne we know and love, would have been cautious in her approach and dealings with Henry if she was Wife #3. So I don't blame Jane for being the passive wife of legend.

November 23, 2011
5:09 pm
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Mya Elise
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I agree with Bill too, i mean Henry did become the bad man after Anne death. If Anne had been the 3rd,4th,5th or 6th wife it would of been different probably because he didn't tolerate anything in his later life especially sharp toungued women. It's like the the whole Anne situation really changed him to not care.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 23, 2011
5:09 pm
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Mya Elise
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I agree with Bill too, i mean Henry did become the bad man after Anne death. If Anne had been the 3rd,4th,5th or 6th wife it would of been different probably because he didn't tolerate anything in his later life especially sharp toungued women. It's like the the whole Anne situation really changed him to not care.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 23, 2011
10:48 pm
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Elliemarianna said:

At the end of the day, Jane knew what she was doing. Like Chapys said, even he actively encouraged her to entice the kings affection away from Anne. Jane married him to get rid of Anne and stop the reformation, not out of love. She went lower than Anne did in her ambitions, stepping over the hardly cold body of Anne. In my opinion, that forfeits the right to happiness. At least Anne didn’t actively encourage the King to commit the murder of Catherine or her daughter.

I absolutely agree- what Jane did was for power- not love. Henry and Katheryn's relationship was over. Katheryn was past child bearing age and the age gap between her and Henry was never more obvious. He was married to his mother! And before any of you say Anne broke up the marriage- do you think for one second that Henry was not doing everything in his power to have Anne? It was he, not Anne that broke up his first marriage. It was his advisors and the seymour that distroyed his second. I don't believe the seymour deserves any sypathy- she chose her path, she knew what she was doing and was ruthless about it.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

November 24, 2011
2:19 am
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Elliemarianna
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“But I hear the young lady (Jane) has been well tutored, and warned by those among the kings courtiers who hate the concubine, telling her in any wise not to give into the King's fancy unless he makes her his Queen, upon which the damsel is quite resolved. She has likewise been advised to tell the King frankly, and without reserve, how much his subjects abominate his marriage contracted with the concubine, and that not one considers it legitimate, and that this declaration ought to be made in the presence of witnesses of the titled nobility of this kingdom, who are to attest the truth of her statements should the King request them on oath and fealty to do so.”

“In fact, it will not be Carew's fault if the aforesaid concubine, though a cousin of his, is not overthrown one of these days, for I hear that he is daily conspiring against her, and trying to persuade Miss Seymour and her friends to accomplish her ruin.”

Jane Seymour obviously had a large part to play in Anne's downfall. She actively encouraged the King's hatred towards Anne. Firstly, Jane claimed support for Catherine, yet began courting Henry while Catherine was still alive, when there was a chance of a reconciliation, which was an obvious lie. Secondly, she had absolutely no concern or conscience towards Anne, especially while pregnant, this to me shows Jane's ruthless personality. She didn't care about Anne, and no doubt had no difficulty in lying about her conduct to Henry to turn him against Anne.

Considering Jane was SO informed about what her faction were doing, and Cromwell was in contact with her too, she would have known what was happening. She wasn't a idiot, she knew what she was doing, she was not innocent and she must take responsibility for the things she did.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

November 24, 2011
8:03 am
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Mya Elise
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So she basically played the part of the perfect shy innocent girl?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

November 24, 2011
11:10 am
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Elliemarianna
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Mya-Elise. said:

So she basically played the part of the perfect shy innocent girl?

Yeah pretty much… She was trained to behave a certain way, to attract the King. Even Chapys said when Henry was done with her he could find plenty of witnesses to say she had lead a less than honourable life at court previously, and considering Chapys supported Jane, I don't see why he would lie about her.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

November 24, 2011
2:49 pm
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Bill1978
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Henry and Katheryn's relationship was over. Katheryn was past child bearing age and the age gap between her and Henry was never more obvious. He was married to his mother!

Not sure how this can be used to justify Henry's relationship with Anne as being perfectly OK. Using that logic, if Hugh Jackman dumped his wife and hooked up with Lindsay Lohan, the world should celebrate and be grateful that Hugh might be able to have a natural child of his own.

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