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How could she do it?
January 8, 2014
11:59 pm
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Always_the_Same
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Olga said

OK I think we need a little perspective here…

Katherine was given an allowance of £1,000 per annum, which is more than £600,000 in today’s money. I think Katherine’s “penury” was her idea of penury. I don’t know if Henry lowered her income after her mother died, but when she first came to London he gave her £300 to get by three months and then set her yearly allowance at £1,000…

… which he told her he gave her out of his own goodwill because Ferdinand had still not paid the marriage portion Henry was owed.

By the way Henry VIII had squandered the treasury in about three years Bo. Most of the money went to Henry’s failed military campaigns in the early years of his reign. Most of England’s kings built and renovated extensively, he wasn’t overly special in that department.

Olga interesting informations, it is amazing how a little perspective brings light to the facts.
Henry spent all his father’s fortune in 3 years! unbelievable!

January 9, 2014
1:34 am
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Olga
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Yes it was a whole three years Sharon Laugh You can tell I’ve been reading Tremlett. By the way my version has no footnotes, I’ve got a Faber paperback, does anyone know which version is footnoted?
I knew Henry forgave the dowry, I think it had something to do with his idea of chivalry, and the fat lot of money he had just inherited.

Always_the_Same I was actually really surprised when I found out how much her allowance was. I had heard the figure a while ago but I didn’t have a good understanding of actual relative worth when I first started reading history. 100 quid never sounded like a lot to me at the start LOL.

January 9, 2014
3:22 am
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MrsFiennes
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As to the matter of Catherine being in debt when she married Henry I refer you to these articles.https://www.historyonthenet.com/Tudors/catherine_aragon_timeline.htm

http://www.theanneboleynfiles……-one/8065/

January 9, 2014
8:19 am
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Olga
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Nobody denied she was in debt, whether or not that is Henry VII’s fault is another matter. She seems to have had a very large income, Henry VIII gave Anne a thousand a year when he ennobled her and that was more than twenty years later.
By the way where are the sources on that first article? I don;t think it’s correct that neither Henry or Ferdinand gave her an allowance, only that Ferdinand made it clear to Henry he was responsible for her upkeep.

January 9, 2014
9:08 am
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MrsFiennes
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Source for the first link is the reference library on the same site.This site also has the same info http://www.royalpaperdolls.com…..AStory.htm

I’m not saying that he didn’t give her anything I’m just stating that even if there was a set allowance in some records somewhere it doesn’t necessarily mean he gave it to her.He could have given her any amount he wanted.Who would know?It really is debatable.All we have is her word saying it wasn’t enough.I believe her.She was not wanted in England until her dowery was payed.

This site gives evidence of sporadic payment to Catherine.http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/…..table/4891

January 9, 2014
7:43 pm
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Sharon
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Olga, I have the hard copy of Tremlett’s book and it gives the sources.
Katherine believed she should have been treated better by her father and Henry. This is a young princess used to spending money like it was nothing. She supposedly ran up debt all over London. I don’t think Henry would let her starve, but he did not think she needed to put out money as she did.
On further investigation: Katherine’s biographer, Garrett Mattingly writes of her poverty.
Whenever Henry got angry over negotiations with Ferdinand, he would cut her off. Henry stopped paying her allowance when she lived at Durham House. This is from Mattingly….When she was at Greenwhich, and later at Richmond, she had no money. Henry had stopped sending a monthly allowance. She resorted to selling her jewels and plate. This is 1506. Katherine, Mattingly writes, was reluctant to sell her plate and jewels as her father and mother had told her not to touch it. But what was she supposed to do? Henry gave her money now and then….”once a hundred marks, once seventy once in a rush of generosity, two hundred pounds but never enough to cover current expenses, let alone pay back debts, and never with any regularity, or without some insulting reminder that it was charity.” In 1507 Ferdinand sent 2,000 ducats which went to her debts,” which another 3,000 would not by then have sufficed.” Mattingly states, by this time “her Spanish suite huddled and hid their rags from a court daily more negligent and contemptuous in whatever lodgings the King of England chose to provide.” Henry would reinstate her allowance only to cut it off if negotiations went poorly.
Olga, I couldn’t help it! I do think she overdramatized her situation at times. She did buy gowns while complaining that they had little to eat. There was food sent to her. She complained about the meat, and when she was given fish, she complained about that.
I also noticed that she did see young Henry now and again. She received a gift from him at Christmas 1508. They had corresponded with each other over the years. Please don’t ask me where I saw that. It was either The Winter King, Catherine, by Tremlett or Catherine by Mattingly. I’m going to go lay down for a bit. Confused

January 9, 2014
11:04 pm
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MrsFiennes
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Sharon,I don’t think Henry7 would starve her either but whether he payed her or not is what I’m having question with.Also if she could live in the manner befitting someone engaged to the heir of England.I think I might buy dresses too rather than have someone see me in rags.David Loades says in his book The Six Wives of Henry VIII that payments stopped in 1505.If she demanded better treatment she should have got it.I don’t believe she would have sold something that was part of her dowery unless she was very desperate.They weren’t paying her correctly if at all.

January 10, 2014
7:50 am
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Boleyn
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Was K.O.A comfortably off money wise, before she married Faceache? It’s a difficult one to answer.
If we look at it from her point of view, she was the dowager Princess of Wales, but also a Queen in waiting, so therefore in her eyes she should have been given a more or less equal status as Elizabeth of York.
In H7 eyes she was just a widow, as she swore the marriage to Arthur had never been consumated, so therefore she could not be called dowager Princess, so therefore, why should he provide for her?
In those terms until she was wedded and bedded to Faceache, it was her father’s responsibility to provide for her. Ferdinand of course remarried as soon as possible after Isabella’s death as he needed an heir pronto, which of course he failed to get.
I read somewhere, yonks ago, that she gave most of her income to the poor and needy, and often went without because of it. This may or may not be true.
H7 was a misery King that’s for sure, as he had lived practically all his life on the charity of others, he had learnt to make do and mend, and I think he ran his court along the same lines. K.O.A I believe could at times be a little to extravagant, and had to reigned back in.
Although she was given Durham house I feel that she simply went over board with what money H7 was obliged to give her, and that rather got up his bugle, so in the end he felt the only way to stop her spending vast sums on frivolities was to keep her at court to keep an eye on her, or rather get M.B to keep and eye on her.
If she did sell her plate and/or jewels it was probably in a desperate act to provide herself with the luxury she had been used to in Spain. It may have been too as a way of rubbing H7 nose in it a little, for she was a Royal princess. H7 was just the son of a Welsh Land owner. Yes I agree Edmund (H7 father) did have Royal blood in him but it was somewhat watered down, whereas K.O.A came from a long line of pure Royal blood.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 10, 2014
8:06 am
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Bob the Builder
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as many have alluded to ‘not enough..’ is spectacularly subjective – what was an ‘impoverished’ existance for KoA, used to the wealth and oppulance of the Spanish court might look like proflagate consumption to Henry VII, who spent his formative years living hand to mouth on the charity of others while dodging spies and assassins in the courts of France.

its also worth repeating – Ferdinand and Isabella repeatedly failed to uphold their end of the contract, they repeated failed to send the dowry payments, and they repeatedly lied to both Henry VII and KoA about when those dowry payments would be made.

January 10, 2014
8:34 am
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Boleyn,HenryVIII was protesting the marriage at this point and looking else where for a bride so of course the house,her chaperone and the all the money was taken from her at this time.HenryVII thought he would never see that dowery money from Ferdinand.I think he was preparing to ship her back not watch her or have her watched.

If Catherine did give a lot of her money to charity that was what was expected of royal ladies.She had to keep up some sort of standing.

January 10, 2014
1:25 pm
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Olga
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Great Sharon, thank you. I will have to hunt that book down. Isabella died in 1504, and I think Henry would have been reconsidering the marriage by then because she had lost a lot of her “worth” with the death of her mother. It makes sense he stopped sending her regular allowance to pressure Ferdinand, as from what I read in Tremlett she was writing to her father begging him to pay the marriage portion because it was causing her difficulties.

MrsF privy purse expenses were household accounts and are a completely reliable source, and one of the best sources of information on historical figures. Several people would know if the accounts were out of order. In fact if he had stopped paying her in 1505 or 1506 the privy purse accounts are probably how the year he stopped paying the regular allowance was determined.

Bob the Builder said
its also worth repeating – Ferdinand and Isabella repeatedly failed to uphold their end of the contract, they repeated failed to send the dowry payments, and they repeatedly lied to both Henry VII and KoA about when those dowry payments would be made.

Repeated.

Boleyn said

Was K.O.A comfortably off money wise, before she married Faceache? It’s a difficult one to answer.

No she was in debt.

Boleyn said
H7 was a misery King that’s for sure, as he had lived practically all his life on the charity of others, he had learnt to make do and mend, and I think he ran his court along the same lines.

Henry and Elizabeth of York had an extravagant court, and Henry spent the equivalent of millions of pounds on jewels and clothing for his family. The whole “miserly” thing stems from the fact he used to impose heavy fines on nobles as a form of punishment. He gave them a long time to pay back the fines, meaning they were literally in debt to him for life. He did it to take power away from the nobles.

Keep in mind that nearly every monarch of England was slandered after their death. It was traditional. Give them a few years and they were moaning about the next one. One of my favourite quotes from Elizabeth I

“I know the inconstancy of the people of England, how they ever mislike the present government and have their eyes fixed upon that person that is next to succeed, and naturally there are more that look, as it is said, on the rising than the setting sun.”

January 10, 2014
5:16 pm
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Boleyn
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What would have happened to K.O.A if H. Tulip had found a better match for H.Junior? It’s possible he would have sent her home, and i believe the Spanish Ambassador was preparing or trying to persuade K.O.A to return home. It was she herself who put the tin hat on that idea.
I believe things were pretty much ok for her up until, the time of Elizabeth’s of York’s death, and Isabella’s death would have certainly de-valued K.O.A as a suitable marriage deal.But why was this. Ferdinand was a powerful monarch in his own right, Castille was taken over by her sister Juana, granted she was considered mad, but I think her problems were more down to mental stress, and the extra burden that now fell on her shoulders I.E ruling a country was just too much for her. Her father’s continue plotting against her couldn’t have helped her mental problems either.
In my opinion K.O.A was still a very good catch, I’ve said it before, that H Tulip really pipped the ace by securing K.O.A as a bride for Arthur, as many of the ruling monarch’s just saw H Tulip as a usurper and a regiside, and that it would only be a matter of time before someone rose up and kicked him to the kerb, at least that’s what I think.
Granted it was expected that Queen/Princess/ and noble ladies would do charitable works, etc.
The taxes issue was a kind of double edged sword with H. Tulip and both sides of the sword cut deep. If I have remembered it right it went like this.
For instance if he asked a noble for £100 in say roof tax, and the noble coughed up freely, the H.Tulip too it as a sign that the noble had more than enough money to cough up some more. If the noble said “look here old boy I need a bit more time to pay this.” H.Tulip would take it that he was hiding away some of his money, so that he couldn’t get his grubby little mitts on it and charged the noble more money. Which is without a doubt a very unfair Oxymoron.
I don’t think H Tulip could afford to let K.O.A go back home, he had spent a shed load of money to bring her here, not to mention the lavish wedding celebrations.
Would Ferdinand want her back? I don’t think he would want the hassle, he’s got enough problems of his own to sort out, without having an unmarried, daughter to sort out too.
If K.O.A had gone home to Spain and Ferdinand had managed to find her another husband, would the 2 despensations issued by the Pope to allow H Junior and K.O.A play anypart in these new marriage negotiations? 1 dispensation said she was a virgin the other left the question open. How would the Pope backpeddle out of that one to annul their contract, on what grounds apart from consanguinity, but surely that would only work if Arthur and K.O.A’s marriage been consumated? Yes I agree that they may say that as they are both decended down the John of Gaunt bloodline, but surely that would have also made her union with Arthur as consanguinic, and therefore the marriage shouldn’t have taken place at all.
It looks to me at least that when th chips were down H.Tulip had no choice but to keep here in England. I don’t think he was over happy about it, as he probably had very big plans for Junior. Arthur married to a Spanish princess would have had the europeon courts flocking to him with marriage proposals, which in turn H Junior’s bride would have the Spanish Royals as in laws to her.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 10, 2014
10:39 pm
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Olga It was the summer of 1505 that David Loades says the payments stopped.Which I think is around the time that HenryVIII was secretly saying he didn’t want to marry Catherine anymore.I agree the household accounts were probably a good source stating that the payments were made to Catherine but were they actually?Can it be proved?I’m just saying I believe she was not being payed anything at this point.Her marriage market value had decreased due to Isabella’s death and I think they were thinking of sending her back to Spain at this point.HenryVII was probably thinking if he could get a better bride for Henry VIII he could recope his losses with Catherine.Perhaps by not paying her he was forcing Catherine to want to go back where she could live as the princess she was used to being.

Boleyn I don’t think Catherine would have wanted to go back to Spain.I don’t think she would have wanted to at this point.I read in Alison Plowden’s book Tudor Women that she had told her father in a letter that the english could not break her spirit and she would rather die than to return to Spain.I don’t think Ferdinand would have taken her back either.

January 11, 2014
11:48 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you
I agree I think Ferndinand washed his hands of K.O.A when she stepped on the boat to England. I think to have her back as as cast off bride, would not have done much for his ego, and there would have been a few raised eyebrows. Especially since Juana ws showing signs of madness (loosely worded I’m inclined to think it was mental stress and manic depression, not madness) any would be suitor would sort of wonder if K.O.A had the same mental problems. Would they really want to sully their own line with madness so to speak.
As it was anyway Philip’s (Mary1st husband) son Carlos (Charles) was locked away because of his violent bouts of anger and madness towards others, strang ethat the only person who he showed any form of affection for was Elizabeth of France, who at one time was considered as a possible bride for him, but she ended up marrying Philip instead.
From the time she was betrothed to Arthur she knew that her destiny lay in England, if H. Tulip had found another match for H.Junior I think she would have perhaps become an ambassador for her country, which is something she had already proved she could do, and quite well too.
But I wonder how she would have felt if H Tulip had managed to find an another match for H Junior. Would she object and state H Junior can’t be married to someone else as he is betrothed to me. That’s where I think H. Tulip has been clever, by getting the 2 dispensations, both of them are contradictary, and as I mentioned in my previous post both of them can be declared invalid on the grounds of consanguinity. I.E if Arthur and Catherine had had a dabble the marriage was a no no that it was considered a sin to marry his dead brother’s wife. (although the Bible is very contradictary on this. Bits of it state it’s a sin, but then it also says it is up to the younger son to marry his dead brother wife) If they hadn’t the marriage was still was still a no no because of the blood tie, through John of Gaunt.. Doesn’t matter that the blood line on H Tulip side came down from a bastard sprig of John of Gaunt the blood tie was still there.
H Junior on the other hand perhaps fancied himself as being in love with her, and playing the golden knight in shining armour rescuing the damsel in distress so to speak.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 11, 2014
12:17 pm
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MrsFiennes
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No problem Boleyn.LaughAlthough,I am not so sure about the whole Juana thing.Ferndinand claimed she was mad and I suppose it did run in the family and all(Isabella’s mother had a touch) I believe as well.But in Juana’s case Ferndinand could have wanted Spain for his own finally and just claimed Juana was mad.I have my doubts about that whole Juana is mad thing.

Was HenryVIII really playing the knight in shinning armour?Not sure about this either perhaps HenryVII told him to send Catherine back to Spain on his death bed instead of telling him to marry her.Maybe he was defying his father.

January 11, 2014
4:55 pm
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Boleyn
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It could well be that H.Junior was defying his father, that what makes me wonder why H.Tulip set up a regency, because h.Junior was too headstrong and implusive to actually make an effective ruler, at that time. Did H.Tulip and H. Junior have some heated words about the whole situation to do with K.O.A?
I inclined to think that his father was extremely reluctant about the whole marriage deal. What I don’t understand is that when Arthur died and Elizabeth of York died there was talk of H.Tulip marrying her himself. But her parents said no. Why?
To me it would have solved the problems of what to do with her. If she had married H Tulip, she could have possibly got a few spare heirs in the nursery before he died, and would have been Queen and Queen Dowager and as a result would have been quite well off too.
Juana I don’t believe was mad, she had emotional problems that’s for sure, but she was squirrels. Ferdinand as you say was greedy he wanted both kingdoms for himself, but both Kingdoms were seperate to each and stayed that way even when Ferdinand and Isabella married.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

January 11, 2014
10:54 pm
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MrsFiennes
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Boeyn I think Isabella and Ferdinand didn’t want her to marry Henry7 because Catherine would have basically had no future.I mean she could have only looked for a few years of reign with Henry7 then she’s widowed again.She probably wouldn’t have ended up with any political influence either.Perhaps she would have had some if she produced an heir but who could say that she would.Henry7 was ill so they probably looked at it as too risky.With Henry8 she had a shot of reigning for sometime and having a more stable life.

January 11, 2014
11:46 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Mrs F.
I get the feeling, that although at first the idea of a Spanish marriage was seen as a good idea, but that once Arthur had died the whole Spanish dream died. H7 was lucky to procure K.O.A for Arthur, quite a feather in his cap, but the whole policical situation had changed when Arthur had died.
Marriages were all about politics not love, if the couple fell in love it was seen as a bonus, and perhaps it did help the relationship a little.
I rather think that H7 was perhaps looking for a match in Portugal or in France maybe. Plus I think that H7 was fed up with Ferdinand’s procrastination over the missing dowry payments.
H7 probably thought it was better to cut his losses and look elsewhere for a match for H.Junior. In many ways K.O.A’s marriage to Arthur also put the stamp on the Tudor dynasty, in the sence that it was here and here to stay too. For many I believe in the europeon courts perhaps though that H.Tulip’s reign would be all just a flash in the pan, and judging by the fact that H7 was plagued with 2 pretenders, to actually managed to get 2 of the most powerful rulers in the known world to agree to send their daughter to England was the WOW factor so to speak.

By the way I meant to say Juana “wasn’t” Squirrels.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 26, 2014
6:40 pm
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I’ve mentioned before about the Spanish marriage and how I feel that England needed Spain more than the other way around. However one of the things I have been thinking about to do with the Anglo/Spanish relations is that it could have been further strengthen, by a double whammy wedding.
I believe that at one time H7 had thought about marrying COA himself, after Lizzy of York’s death, this in itself wasn’t bad idea, but Ferdinand I believe wouldn’t agree. Why not? If Ferdinand had wanted a really good foothold in England. Why not marry COA to H7 and his Grandaughter Eleanor to H Junior. Yes I agree H Tulip wasn’t a well man, but surely he could have ben strong enough to have fathered 1 or more children before shuffling off his mortal coil. He proved he was still able to come up with what mattered after Arthur had died for Queen Liz got pregnant fairly quickly afterwards. So there was no reason for him not to be able to father one or 2 extra heirs.
Marrying Eleanor to H Junior, would again keep the Anglo Spanish allience going, ok so H Junior would have to wait a a fair few years before he could start procreating as Eleanor would have only been 11 when H Tulip died. But when it was quite common for a child of 12 to start to have children he wouldn’t have had to wait all that long. (Margeret B was only about 12/13 when she bore H Tulip) plus given Eleanor’s age she would have had many years in front of her to bear children. If COA had had a child or 2 as well then in all likelyhood the Tudor line would have continued on and Scotland would have only ever been involved Via marriage not through bloodline like it is today. ie no Jimbo 1st. Scotland would have remained a seperate country and would still have it’s own monachy, It’s legal line of Kings and Queens would still be Stewart. In fact it would now be ruled by a Queen called Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart, 18th Duchess of Alba. She also has progeny that would keep the Stewart line going.

I think that perhaps the reason to why Ferdinand said not to H Tulip’s marriage proposal was because he was at that time involved in keeping his daughter Juana out of Castille as he had wanted Castille for himself as well as having Aragon. In short he was being bloody greedy.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 27, 2014
3:34 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said
Why not marry COA to H7 and his Grandaughter Eleanor to H Junior. Yes I agree H Tulip wasn’t a well man, but surely he could have ben strong enough to have fathered 1 or more children before shuffling off his mortal coil. He proved he was still able to come up with what mattered after Arthur had died for Queen Liz got pregnant fairly quickly afterwards. So there was no reason for him not to be able to father one or 2 extra heirs.
Marrying Eleanor to H Junior, would again keep the Anglo Spanish allience going, ok so H Junior would have to wait a a fair few years before he could start procreating as Eleanor would have only been 11 when H Tulip died. But when it was quite common for a child of 12 to start to have children he wouldn’t have had to wait all that long.

According to wikipedia, Eleanor was bethrothed to H8 before his fathre’s death but Henry decided to marry KoA instead. I think the reason was partly due to Henry’s long standing admiration for KAtherine as well as the fact that she was old enough to produce offspring rather than have to wait several years for Eleanor to grow up.

It's always bunnies.

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