Elliemarianna said:

Boleyn said:

Jane like so many of KOA’s ladies were dismissed when Henry became enamoured of Anne Boleyn, and really wasn’t that interested in who was sacked he just wanted KOA’s household decreased so that he could prove a point not only to Anne but to Katherine too, that he was deadly serious in wanting an annulment/divorce, and some of KOA’s ladies transfered in to Anne’s household basically because they probably had no where else to go, but Jane it seems wasn’t one of them, and went back home to Wiltshire. Jane’s brother’s were of course at court but I don’t know exactly what role they actually played at court but they must have somehow flattered Henry’s ego enough for him to advance them etc. Henry certainly wouldn’t have paid a visit to one of his bottom wiper’s houses, so the Seymours must have held noted positions in the court.. I think their father Sir John Seymour was with Henry in the days of Henry’s heady youth when he went to France to bag himself a few French prizes, but as far as Edward and Thomas go I just think they were at court as many young men who father’s held titles to find themselves a good match, wife wise. Although Edward had already been married to Katherine Fillol, who it is alleged Sir John had seduced thus putting and end to that marriage.
Anyway whatever it was I think Henry really only started to notice Jane when he went to Wulf Hall, Jane being the complete opposite of Anne in the sence that she was docile and gentle, was a stark contrast between Anne abrasive and brash temper, and I think it was that which possibly the attraction, where as Jane wouldn’t question why she was being asked to fetch water or whatever, whereas Anne would rail against it and generally get stroppy

. To be honest I don’t think Jane did anything to try and tempt Henry away from Anne, far from it in fact she made it clear that she wouldn’t become his mistress, and if Henry had truly loved Anne as he claimed he wouldn’t have wanted to be with anyone else anyway, Certainly when he first married Anne he didn’t cast his eye elsewhere, perhaps if Elizabeth had been a boy he would have still been with her and not bothered with anyone else, but I rather think he would have.. Anne was getting on in years but she still had at least 8/10 years left for childbearing, but I feel that Henry had tired of Anne even before he met Jane. Jane just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Did Henry do wrong in insisting that Jane came to court to serve Anne, as she had KOA. Yes but I don’t think the outcome would have been different if he hadn’t. Anne of course saw Jane as a rival to get rid of, I think she tried or did manage to get her sent away temporarly too?

However Anne must of got wind of the fact that Henry was getting tired of her and put Jane on her to do list, as getting Henry to love her as he once loved her back again became her main priority. Rumour has it she actually drugged Henry one night to get him to sleep with her, again that may or may not be true, but either way Henry had had enough of Anne and her tempestous nature and wanted someone to love him for himself, and not for what he could give her.

 Jane was as I said very docile in nature and that appealed to Henry, is it that she in some way reminded him of KOA? KOA had a very docile and conforming nature as she was taught to be in her youth by her mother, but KOA also had a strength of charather that Jane hadn’t got so maybe that was the reason that Henry found her all the more attractive when she back came to court to serve Anne, who must have given Jane a bit of a bad time of it.

The fact that she must have taken Anne’s rantings and raving’s at her (which I feel Anne must have done) with grace and good humour, must have drove Henry into to a frenzy for Jane. I said in another one of my postings that I felt that Henry was more into the thrill of the chase where woman were concerned, and I think this is quite possibly one of those times.

He was bowled over by Jane and her humility and said I’ve got to have her at any cost, in this case it was Anne’s head.. But seriously I don’t think Jane was anything whatsoever with Anne’s downfall.

Did Jane feel anything for the lost of Anne who some felt Jane was the cause of, possibly, but she knew that Anne’s temper was more to do with it then herself, and I think Henry did actually talk with Jane about his problems concerning Anne. Making Jane feel sorry for him, in short Henry was like a lost little boy, stuck between a rock and hard place and not knowing what to do for the best. Jane possibly soothed away his troubles and possibly was quite motherly towards him (hope that makes sence)

When he married Jane he as happy, as he got the family life which I think he wanted and when Jane got pregnant he felt that it was miracle, the crowning moment (Jane’s especially) of which was Jane giving birth to a son.

I do feel sorry for Jane dying like she did, and I also think that her death must have effected little Edward too, obvisously he heard about her and her life from others and perhaps more so from his Uncles. Edward I feel grew up in awe of his father, but not being able to do what most children do i.e sit on their father’s laps (although I think he’d have a hard job finding Henry’s lap it would have been more like a shelf than a lap) listening to stories of great feats of daring do. Henry I should imagine was a bit like a porcupine able to shoot his spikes at all those who said something he didn’t like, so Edward (as I think Elizabeth and possibly Mary too) must have felt that he/ they were forever walking on eggshells around his father. I don’t think Edward actually mentioned his mother to Henry, for fear of getting a quill up his backside.

I think that Henry did truly love Jane, the fact that he expressed little to no ambition in wanting to get married again for almost 2 years after her death does speak that he did love her, but I think Cromwell’s constant nagging at him to marry again and the fact that Edward was not as strong as they had hoped, I’m not sure but I think Edward became quite sick and came close to death at one point during Henry’s 2 years of widowership and that perhaps also made him realise just how important it was to have other children.  

Jane wasn’t removed from Anne’s service after the change over – she still remained at court the whole time. Henry already knew Jane, and she was most likely not at Wulf Hall. Anne had accompanied Henry when they visited Jane’s family home, and were said to be merry together.

Jane did have a part in attracting the king… Here is the evidence…

Chapys – 17th Feb 1536; (On Anne’s miscarriage in January) “…whilst others imagine that the fear of the King treating her as he treated his late Queen, – which is not unlikely, considering his behaviour towards a damsel of the Court, named Miss Seymour, to whom he has latterly made very valuable presents – is the real cause of it all.” Jane was courting Henry before the miscarriage.

Chapys 1st April 1536; “But I hear the young lady (Seymour) has been well tutored and warned by those among this King’s courtiers who hate the concubine, telling her not in any wise to give in to the King’s fancy unless he makes her his Queen, upon which the damsel is quite resolved.She has likewise been advised to tell the King frankly, and without reserve, how much his subjects abominate the marriage contracted with the concubine and that not one considered it legitimate, and that this declaration ought to be made in the presence of witnesses of the titled nobility of this kingdom, who are to attest the truth of her statements should the King request them on their oath and fealty to do so.”

Chapys 29th April 1536; “…and trying to persuade Miss Seymour and her friends to accomplish her ruin.”

Jane happily lied to Henry, poisoning him against Anne. She knew what she was doing…

As Starky says “Anne might talk of killing Catherine; the gentle Jane went further and was an accessory-after-the-fact to the judicial murder of her predecessor.”

Rumour has it she actually drugged Henry one night to get him to sleep with her, again that may or may not be true, but either way Henry had had enough of Anne and her tempestuous nature and wanted someone to love him for himself, and not for what he could give her.

Where did you get that from?!

Splitting Henry and Anne up wasn’t an easy task. May I suggest you read Eric Ives book on Anne Boleyn?

Henry treated Jane quite badly while she was alive – most sources show his negative treatment of her. When begging Henry to bring Mary back to the succession, he called her a fool, and threatened her with Anne’s fate. One week after their marriage had been announced he met two beautiful ladies at court and said, regrettably, that he wished he had met them before he chose to marry Jane… Not very loving in my opinion…

It wasn’t until after she died giving him his much wanted heir that he ‘loved her’. Henry was actually talking of marriage within months of Jane’s death, but no one wanted to marry him..

 

Thank you Ellie. to be honest, I think I have read Eric Ives book but it's always worth me reading it again. refresh the old noggin.

 

My opinion was purely how I saw the relationship between Jane and Henry and not to be taken as fact.  I know Henry was very irasible and at one point I think he did tell Jane to shut her mouth and stop meddling or she would meet the same fate as Anne. I can't remember exactly what that was about but I think it was either something to do with Mary or to do with the disenters of the pilgramage of grace, and certainly I think he was a bit of a git to Jane. 

 

Yes I do think Jane did flaunt herself in front of Anne she especially made sure that she drew attention to the locket that Henry had given her. But I don't think she was solely responsible for Anne's miscarriage, I think it was perhaps a mixture of Henry's fall and Jane's flaunting, and I don't think the Duke of Norfolk helped much either as I believe it was him who broke the news of Henry's fall to

Anne. Perhaps Jane was a bit of a bitch so to speak, but I don't think she was all bad.

 

Shoot I forgot to take the bit out about Anne drugging Henry my bad please ignore it. My fault for trying to hold a conversation on Yahoo whilst writing on the forum. Never could do 2 things at once..

 

I had another completely way off the latch and completely idea a few years back that Anne's miscarriage could have been possibly induced by giving her Hemlock in a drink.. Yeah I know. You can say it. I'm a silly old twit, I don't know why I thought that but we can never really know it might have actually been the truth. The Seymour's were the rising stars, and like Anne before them would do anything and get rid of anyone who stood in their way. Don't take that as sacrosanct please it's just one of my loopy and off the latch ideas..

 

I definetely think the Seymours were coaching Jane but at the same time she had probably watched Anne when she was tempting Henry so she probably knew how to tempt him without actually appearing to, to others, although Anne would have recognised these temptations from Jane as she used the same tactics herself. I suppose you could say that Anne taught her ladies well in the game of seduction. Jane must have been watching the relatinship between Henry and Anne very closly to pick exactly the right moment to push herself forward, so in some repects although some people have said that Jane was a simpleton, clearly she wasn't she knew what to do and when to do it, like I said Anne was a good teacher.

 

 I do know that Henry, via a messenger had offered her a purse of gold and a letter which she kissed and said that she would accept the gold gratefully from Henry once God had sent her a husband, I can only imagine the letter had asked her to become his mistress and the Gold was for services rendered.

I personally think that he wanted her as his mistress more than perhaps his wife, Jane would be somewhere for him to bolt to when Anne got too much for him I hope that makes sence..

I also feel that Cromwell was involved here too and perhaps told Jane lies about Anne that Henry might like to hear.. Cromwell I think was a bit of a B. He didn't like Anne, because Anne could see him for what he was. Therefore Cromwell used Jane as his weapon against Anne.

Either way from the opinion I've given Jane must have driven Henry mad with desire for her and for him to even think about getting rid of Anne in such a barbaric way.

Anyway Ellie I hope that all makes some sence to you.. For the most part I do think that Henry was happy in his marriage with Jane I think he was just glad to have a bit of peace and quiet, rather than being yelled at all the time by Anne because he dared looked at another woman, although you can't really blame Anne for yelling at him can you? Personally I think that perhaps the peace and quiet wthin his marriage with Jane would have got boring for him after a while, and I think that if Jane hadn't have got pregnant he would have divorced her, getting pregnant was perhaps her saving grace, but it was tragic that she died so soon after giving birth. I'm not sure but I think at one point he was thinking of divorcing her?

 

 

 

Lord Peyton said:

Boleyn said:

Lord Peyton said:

I have been reading these posts off and on for some time now, i am a lover of all things history particularily the tudors and specifically Anne Boleyn. I must admit after reading this particular thread I decided to join this forum and post for the first time because as much as i admire Anne I also highly admire Jane as well as all of Henry’s wives.  I agree with “Nutmeg” that it is very difficult to hate someone who has been dead for over 400 years and the whole team Aragon vs team Boleyn vs team Jane is crazy. These women are a lot different then we are today and I think its unfair to judge what we just don’t know 100%.  If anyone is to blame for any of these fascinating ladies misfortunes it is Henry himself and I admit its hard not to be upset reading about some of the horrors that these tudor personalities endured but I think in a way thats what makes these events so much more interesting. 

I am not the best with words as I am quite introverted and shy but after reading some comments I felt i needed to put my 2 cents and add that Jane is one of my favorite wives because there is so little known about her, as a mother to a small son I can’t imagine how she must have felt before she died after such a terrible childbirth and never getting to enjoy the little baby boy that she must have loved so much. 

 Jane just seems to be like any tudor woman who just wanted a kind husband to provide for her, give her lots of children and live a comfortable life and in my eyes she is just another victim of the tragedy called Henry.

Thanks so much:)

Welcome aboard the Tudor crew train. I hope we get see a lot more of your postings and to hear your views on this fancinating period of British History. We are a mixed bunch, but freindly, and may a bit nutty too, Well I am I really can't speak for the others, but you would be too if you had a Dinosaur for a husband.. LOL..

 

Hi Boleyn!

Thanks for the kind words, i am more of a silent observer and don’t post much since i can’t seem to keep up with typing the words that are flowing from my brain.  I have to admit I enjoy your posts and I can relate having a dinosour for a husband must be hard work

 

The tudors are a tricky bunch and right now I just don’t have the energy or time to keep up with all the comments and topics on here but i will continue to read as everyone on here really seems to know what they are talking about and I am constantly learning something new which is why I follow this site… so keep talking everyone

 

Thank you Lord Peyton, most kind.

You post is a very good one, it does sort of make you wonder about poor old Jane's feelings? I mean for a but 3 or 4 days after Edward's birth I think she was ok, but then of course she got ill. I don't think she actually saw Edward in the days before her illness, although she might of done, but I've not found anything to prove it one way or another. Although I feel she must have done, as she would want to show Edward off to Henry.

You you are right about the tragedy called Henry, he was certainly that alright, even Shakespeare could write a damn good play about it all, in fact I think he did

Every woman who had any contact with him paid a price, although Bessie Blount  and Mary Boleyn were probably the luckiest as they escaped Henry's tar pit.

Dinosaur is a big softy really, he gets grumpy from time to time, well we all do.

To give you an example of just how soft he is. I mentioned to him that I thought chipmunks were cute, he went out one day and was out for ages, so I was a bit worried. When he got back he brought a blasted great cage in with 4 chipmunks in it. They really sweet although they bite him LOL they just chew my t shirts and sit on my hand to eat nuts. However I do wish Smudge would show a little more decorum when eating, They all love strawberries but Smudge has a habit of launching himself into them and being as he's white he get covered in strawberry juice and ends up going pink.

You should post a little more I'm sure you have some wonderful views and we would all like to see them I can understand you being a little shy it's not easy when you are like that, but remember no one will judge you here your views are just as important as all of our. Right or wrong good or bad, if you want to say it do so.

I used to be terribly shy I always felt that if I expressed an opinion I would be laughed at or ridiculed or something.. The only people that will do that is narrow minded self centred pillocks, and I've actually found that in certain cases they aren't as intellegent than you are, that's the reason they act like they do it's to make them feel better. Blimey I'm hardly brain of Britain, although I do have an IQ of 138 which I'm told is quite high, but there others with a much higher IQ than me, but I think everyone will agree that I have certainly livened up the forums. On here I have found some wonderful freinds and I love them all. We may not always agree with each other but we do respect and appreicate every one for who and what they are. Don't worry about any spelling or puncuation errors no one care about that.. They are more interested in what you have to say and I'm sure that whatever you post will be appreicated..

History  and especially Tudor History is apsoluely fancinating, I love it. Just think your ancestors probably came from England Or France, Think you speak both French and English in Toronto? and helped to shape the fabulous wonderful country you have today. Well Mon Ami I let you get on, you will probably need a paracetamol after reading this LOL (please don't write your reply in French LOL I'm afraid I don't know that much…

Please post you views I look forward to reading them.. Take care and keep safe my freind..

 

Lord Peyton..

Yeah you are right about Anne Boleyn.. Henry thought well wanted to believe that she was a witch.. Perhaps she was, who knows, as she's ertainly got us all spellbound after 500 years since she died.

It's strange really thank so many people tend to focus on Henry's first 3 wives but don't bother so much about AOC, KH, or KP, and yet they also did their bit for king and country.. K H is a real mixed bag to try and get to the bottom of?

She was an idiot to behave like she did, I really can't say I blame her some how, as I don't think I'd want a stinking old walrus having sex with me night after night, and I doubt he was very gentle with her either. somehow through these forums I've discovered another side to her. I always assumed that she was that she was un educated and was a bit of a simpleton, but she wasn't ok her education wasn't as top notch as her cousin's A.B or KOA, but she did have some education.. I rather think it was perhaps something to do with the Duchess and the Duke of Norfolk to why K.H wasn't as educated as AB an KOA, Woman with education caused trouble, or that's what I think the Duke of Norfolk thought, and I rather think Anne must have given him the rough edge of her tongue from time to time if he hacked her off.. Either K.H had a more gentler side to her and showed a lot of kindnesses to people who were less fortunate than her, even before she became Queen. We know that she sent some warm clothes and I think food into the Tower, the clothes went to Lady Salisbury, whilst the food went to the poorer prisoners.

I often wondered why she turned to Culpepper for comfort, and I think that just what it was comfort, they may or may not of had sex, so that one is a matter for speculation, but we do know she had sex with Derham, I'm not so sure with Mannox, I think it's possible she had perhaps anal sex with him., certainly he said that he had felt her secrets and knew of a mole on her leg.. but again it's a matter for speculation. I can't blame KH for wanting to find solace with someone of her family and someone of her age. I actually get the impression that she was unhappy being married toHenry, but enjoyed all the goodies, perhaps that was the only thing that kept her going.. I do think she would have married Culpepper if she had been given the choice, but she wasn't.. Thank heavens that we've all evolved from that time period and we woman are now considered as equals to men, and have the freedom of choice to choose who we want to be with.. Sorry about this posting being a long one, and I hope that you will try to post your opinions, I'd love to hear them. Take care and Keep safe mon ami..

Yes I admit I am not as familiar with Henrys last 3 wives but seriously Anna of cleves got a great deal and I may just start reading up on her next as she is the least fascinating wife in my opinion and considering she ended up being the luckiest I really should like to learn more. Poor katherine Howard! She breaks my heart! at 18 I feel is still a child and lets face it i bet there are many including myself who have made many terrible mistakes at that young age. Idiot yes….Death sentence No!  What I don't understand is how could she really be that careless, Henry was well known at that time for his irrascible temper so why did'nt she just keep to her rooms and keep quiet, he would of died in 5 years and she would be what 22 or 23 and a very wealthy widow! Was there no one 'tutoring' her on Henry and his record so to speak once they noticed he was attracted to her? And her uncle Norfolk well thats another forum topic altogether.

Lord Peyton.. I'm starting to think that Henry was a buffoon.

K.H was breifly at court when she was maid in waiting to AOC, so she may have seen the thunder cloud above Henry's head when ever he visited AOC,  When I read your posting I had to have a giggle. A great big blubber mountain rolling round the floor kicking a screaming in temper, LOLLOL.. Lord knows how many men it would take to get back on his feet again, I guess they would just have to roll him out of the room and take from there..

Strangely enough did you know that King John used to throw temper tantrums like a 2 year old. He used to lie on the floor kicking and screaming and lashing out at all who came near, and used to stuff and chew the rushes from the floor. 

K.H would have received an education on the ways of courtly behaviour, but apart from the general education such as running a household etc, that would have been just about it. Woman weren't considered worthy of educating in those days although to be fair there were a few radicals who believed otherwise. KOA obvisously had a brilliant education and I think she was taught the state of warcraft from her mother, KOA proved to England that she wasn't just a sit by the fire and wait Queen when Henry was in France, and the Scots decided to try and invade, She not only won the battle she won the war too. A.B. well she was a highly intelligent young lady, as was K.P. AOC was perhaps educated at least she knew enough to know it was no good arguing with a blubber mountain when he wanted his way, so perhaps she possessed enough intelligence to know to take what Henry was offering and run. Jane Seymour I believe she could read and write, but whetehr she chose to use these talents I don't know, certainly she had been educated for courtly skills having served KOA for many years before transferring to A.B, certainly she had household skills, and was by all accounts very motherly towards Mary (whom she's known in KOA household) and Elizabeth, although Elizabeth wasn't at court that much, because Henry couldn't bear the sight of her.. but to be honest as I said in another poosting I think it's more likely that she reminded him of Anne as Elizabeth certainly inhereited her mother's spark, but also perhaps he could see a lot of himself in her too and I think that possbli un-nerved him a little. Anne and Henry were a dangerous combiation, literely dynamite and a match, but boy did they give England a real gem.. Elizabeth was fantastic. Again Elizabeth was another one to blow all the cynics out of the water, that girls shouldn't be educated..I'd like to see them do better against the Armada.

Just out of interest Sir Thomas More also educated his daughters very radical hey..

The Duke of Norfolk well I'm still reserving judgement at the moment but my impression he was a B.

AOC is another enigma in Tudor history  She was more of a pawn in Cromwell game of chess. Cromwell actually had a lot to gain from the marriage, however his grand game of chess didn't work out how it should have done. As AOC goes she wasn't really that bad in appearence, although Henry said she stunk , well he was hardly one to call the kettle black. He must have reeked. I think if wallpaper had been around in those days if anyone had wanted to change their decor, put him in the room and the wallpaper would have literely run around the room screaming too get out, the paint would just curl up and fall off the woodwork and go and hide somewhere…

AOC as it goes actually first met Henry Rochester castle which is about 5 mins drive from where we live, another beautiful place for you to put of your places to visit list.. and of Course Rochester Catherdral is just below the Castle, which as you know Bishop Fisher who defended KOA in the divorce procceedings Rochester was his diosise you must visit that too The arcitecture will blow your mind..and the little place Rochester is has a real mix of different history periods. I also got married there too

It's also the home of Charles Dickens too, the victorian master author..

I've never been to London although I've been through it a few times, and I don't like it one bit. It's too noisy and crowde, I always feel closed in when ever we've been up there.

There are a few books about AOC, but I can been dashed if I can remember by who. David Starkey (who I could give a run for his money) book about the six wives is pretty good as is another one by Antonia Frazer. I've been into History and more so Tudor history since my my early teens so have had 33 years of reading matter to draw on.

Like I said I certainly liven things up and throw the odd snowball in for good measure from time to time

Anyway Mon Ami, you take care and keep safe.

Hope to read more of you very thought provoking posts.

Anyanka said:

Lord Peyton said:

 No I do not speak any french even though here in canada it is one of our official languages but honestly not much spoken outside of quebec except in eastern ontario which is the province I live in and I think in New Brunswick too if my memory is correct. 

 

O/T

 

According to my “So you want to be a Canadian eh!” book from IMM …New Brunswick/Nouvelle Bruswick is the only offical bilingual province and Quebec, where I live, is the only French speaking province. However there are pockets of French speakers in all the other provinces and pockets of Anglophones in Qc.

 

However I was reading about BC having a 90% upswing in parents wanting their children to be taught in immersion French schools and  channels like RDS, the French sports channel, tripling it’s countrywide viewers when CBC stopped showing the Montreal Canadiens hockey team on a regular basis….

Hi Anyanka,

 Oh yes I know Quebec is the only official french speaking province, what I did not know is that New Brunswick was the only official bilingual province. Here in Ontario we are english speaking but of course speaking both languages would put you at a huge advantage probably anywhere in the country.

  My brother is a Montreal canadiens fan and its unfortunate that cbc would stop showing a popular teams games since I think they are the canadian hockey team with the most stanley cups. I attended french Immersion in jr school but decided not to continue in high school and I regret it. I too would like to put my son in the french immersion program when he goes to school in a few years. I think being able to speak more than 1 language is important. Ok so off topic sorry!