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Honestly, Jane Seymour wasn't that bad of a person ...
December 17, 2011
5:09 am
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Bill1978
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Are you serious E? If so just wow?

Maybe I'm not as passionate about Anne as others here, but I just can't see how you can view Jane with so much hatred for tearing apart a marriage but yet find it perfectly fine that Anne was justified in breaking up a marriage because Henry and Katherine's love had wanred (on behalf of only one person). Sure Anne's marriage didn't result in Katherine's instant death but it did isolate her from a country that loved her and prevented her from seeing her own child, so she might as well have been dead. I also don't understand why Jane is bagged for behaving in a way that Anne behaved to get 'her way' with Henry. She played the eact same game, preventing giving into Henry sexually and playing hard to get. I kinda give Jane credit for playing Anne's game just as well. It's just a pity that Jane's game ended in a innocent's death. To this day I do not believe that Jane actively sort the death of Anne. Maybe the Seymour men did but not Jane. She just did as she was told. She was just the carrot dangled in front of the donkey, to get the donkey to move.

December 17, 2011
12:21 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don't think this calls for argueing or anything. We all can have our own opinions on what happend but the reality is we don't know what happend. I don't mean to be insulting but seriously we all think what we want and yeah, there are notes or sources about what happend but that doesn't those notes weren't made up or exaggeratred. Some people may think Jane is this evil manipulating person and other people may think she was this innocent sweet woman but WE DON”T KNOW! and we never will know the whole truth unless someone invents a time machine.

In my mind I believe Jane had some calculation in this but I don't believe she was an evil evil nasty person. Anne had some calculation in her relationship with Henry and I still support her 100%. Everyone is making me so confused honestly LOL. After reading someones post i'm like 'Oh my god i hate her right now' but then I read another and I think 'Ok maybe i'm being too hard on her.' I don't know ! ……

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 17, 2011
12:22 pm
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Mya Elise
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I don't think this calls for argueing or anything. We all can have our own opinions on what happend but the reality is we don't know what happend. I don't mean to be insulting but seriously we all think what we want and yeah, there are notes or sources about what happend but that doesn't those notes weren't made up or exaggeratred. Some people may think Jane is this evil manipulating person and other people may think she was this innocent sweet woman but WE DON”T KNOW! and we never will know the whole truth unless someone invents a time machine.

In my mind I believe Jane had some calculation in this but I don't believe she was an evil evil nasty person. Anne had some calculation in her relationship with Henry and I still support her 100%. Everyone is making me so confused honestly LOL. After reading someones post i'm like 'Oh my god i hate her right now' but then I read another and I think 'Ok maybe i'm being too hard on her.' I don't know ! ……

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 19, 2011
12:46 am
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E
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Bill1978 said:

Are you serious E? If so just wow?

Maybe I’m not as passionate about Anne as others here, but I just can’t see how you can view Jane with so much hatred for tearing apart a marriage but yet find it perfectly fine that Anne was justified in breaking up a marriage because Henry and Katherine’s love had wanred (on behalf of only one person). Sure Anne’s marriage didn’t result in Katherine’s instant death but it did isolate her from a country that loved her and prevented her from seeing her own child, so she might as well have been dead. I also don’t understand why Jane is bagged for behaving in a way that Anne behaved to get ‘her way’ with Henry. She played the eact same game, preventing giving into Henry sexually and playing hard to get. I kinda give Jane credit for playing Anne’s game just as well. It’s just a pity that Jane’s game ended in a innocent’s death. To this day I do not believe that Jane actively sort the death of Anne. Maybe the Seymour men did but not Jane. She just did as she was told. She was just the carrot dangled in front of the donkey, to get the donkey to move.

Did you read my post Bill? I shall state it again: Anne did not break up a marriage. You can read further in Eric Ives Life and Death of Anne Boleyn. Alison Weir, Antonia Frasier also have informative books on the marriage of Henry/Katheryn/Anne, from where I have based my comments.

Also, it was Henry's will and nothing doing with Anne that caused Katheryn to be isolated.

Do you assume then that Jane was a complete idiot with no idea what was to happen to Anne due to her and her families ambition?

 

Why wow? Why am I serious? I am an informed supporter of Anne Boleyn. My opinions are my own I am entitled to them, just as you to yours. It would be preferable if you were to base your opinions on fact however.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

December 19, 2011
7:43 pm
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Mya Elise
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• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 20, 2011
11:39 am
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KarleeBoleyn
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Arguing is not needed .

Le Plus Heureux ♥ ~ Anne Boleyn//Toujours la reine

December 20, 2011
4:01 pm
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Mya Elise
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Yeah thanks Karlee.

I know this subject is a bit sensitive. Some people hate Jane because of what happend to Anne but people also hate Anne because of what happend to Katherine and we Anne fans go through alot to defend Anne and try to make people understand and it's the same with people who like Jane and not Anne. I don't see why it's necessary to 'hate' a person based on what you read or heard, I don't hate Jane but I am not her fan. And thats just where the line is drawn and i'm not gonna say anymore on Jane. I love Anne Boleyn and i'm not a fan of Jane Seymour but I don't hate her. I wish I could go back in time and meet everyone then come back and tell everyone the real truth and say whether Jane is worth hating. But, sadly, i can't. Frown

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 21, 2011
2:30 pm
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Louise
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Claire has written quite a few articles on the Catherine v Anne and Anne v Jane trend. For anyone who hasn’t seen them yet they are definitely worth a read.

December 23, 2011
1:58 pm
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E
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Just curious ladies, but are you saying that one cannot defend themselves or their post should they both come under attack?

I don't go around maligning what opinion people have, each to their own.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

December 23, 2011
5:08 pm
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Neil Kemp
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Starting a reply to another member's post with “No” repeated eight times might argue against your statement.

December 23, 2011
11:02 pm
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Anyanka
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E said:

Just curious ladies, but are you saying that one cannot defend themselves or their post should they both come under attack?

I don’t go around maligning what opinion people have, each to their own.

Neil said part of my reply…but this

 

Why wow? Why am I serious? I am an informed supporter of Anne Boleyn. My opinions are my own I am entitled to them, just as you to yours. It would be preferable if you were to base your opinions on fact however.

It's always bunnies.

December 24, 2011
9:35 pm
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E
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Well? It would be preferable.

Thank you for the insight. I will remember that it is considered acceptable to attack another persons post with no repercussions and that instead, the person defending their post will be under scrutiny. This now makes perfect sense.

Oh, and Merry Christmas.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

December 25, 2011
3:51 pm
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Bill1978
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I will respond E, because it is my initial response to you that caused a certain level of animosity amongst the forum. I have been sitting here for over a week trying to articulate my thoughts so it doesn't come across as attacking you while also thinking whether I should just leave the forum.

My response of Wow and Are you serious? was a knee jerk response to the way you replied to a previous post with all those Nos which came across to me a tad arrogant on the subject and that you were dismissing another person's thoughts on the subject because they didn't match yours.

I will admit that I find your viewpoint and arguments about Anne vs Catherine compared to Anne vs Jane a bit hypocritical. Reading your response my thoughts were and still are that it is perfectly fine for Anne and Henry to get together cause the love between Henry and Catherine had waned. But its not alright for Henry and Jane to get together because no love had waned. While Henry is the main cause for all his separations from his wives, you have to admit that it takes 2 to tango. If Anne wasn't interested in Henry or insist that she would not be with him unless he divorced Catherine, Henry most likely would not have moved Heaven and Earth to get Anne.

Yes the situation is different with Jane I will admit. But remember Anne was pregnant which meant that Henry was not allowed to lie with her. Now whether we like it or not, this gave Henry permission to take a mistress. It just so happened that Jane was the chosen mistress, it also just so happened that Anne sprung the two together which upset her and possibly caused her to miscarriage. Now the miscarriage was enough ammuniation for the Seymour camp and the anti-Boleyn camps to convince Henry that Anne needed to go. And since you are already in 'love' with Jane why not tae her for your wife?

Now I'm not saying Jane was totally clueless about what was going on, but I honestly believe Jane was not whispering in Henry's ear saying 'Kill Anne, Kill Anne' like you insist she did. I still believe she was the carrot to Henry's donkey.I also believe that Jane was clever enough (or was taught well) to behave exactly like Anne did to get Henry. Keep your legs crossed until married, make him want you. This is exactly how Anne operated in her eraly courtship with Henry.

My main issue with your opinions is that you seem to allow Anne to get a free pass on everything, while condemning Jane for similar actions.

It would be preferable if you were to base your opinions on fact however.

My opinions are based on facts. Just like your opinions are based on facts. It's just that we both started at the same point and ended up at a different location.  The issue is seems you have is that you want my opinion to match your opinion. It was this sentence that made me question whether I should stop posting or visiting this site.

I apologise for the wow and are you serious. In hindsight there was no need for them to posted. I should have thought before I posted. I have learnt from this experience, to leave emotion out of posting.

I hope you had a lovely Christmas and I hope you enjoy your return to England, it sounds like you are very pumped to be returning home.

December 25, 2011
5:12 pm
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Neil Kemp
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Bill, I think I can speak for everybody on this forum in wishing that you continue to post. Your contributions are always well thought out and reasoned, and your conclusions are always honest ones based on your interpretation of the evidence to hand. There is the odd time when a member's viewpoint on a certain subject becomes entrenched and it seems that they believe only their viewpoint is correct. I hope you will not let this recent experience put you off, as you are always willing to debate whilst giving full respect to other member's views, even if these are at odds with your own. In short the standards of your contributions and your good manners in dealing with all the forum members would be sadly missed. 

December 27, 2011
3:43 am
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E
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I disagree, Bill. As previously stated, each to their own. I do find it annoying that Anne's behaviour is compared to Jane's for the reasons I have already posted. 

I have a great deal of empathy towards Anne. I think that what Jane did was completely disgraceful.

The trouble with Internet posts is that a person's sense of humour is missed. There have been a few times that I have posted and been misunderstood.

And Neil- thank goodness you were here! 

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

December 27, 2011
4:29 pm
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Neil Kemp
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If being reasonable is now something to be mocked then I think I'll join Bill in heading for the exit.

December 28, 2011
1:28 am
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E
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Sticking your nose in when it is not needed is amusing. And it is a different thing to being reasonable.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

December 28, 2011
1:57 am
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Neil Kemp
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Thank you for your witty and intelligent comments. I rest my case.

December 28, 2011
2:23 am
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Louise
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Dear Bill and Neil,

 

It would be very sad if either of you left the forum. You both add to it and your contributions would be sorely missed by the rest of us. xx

December 28, 2011
3:50 am
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Neil Kemp
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Louise, Thank you so much for those kind words of support. I can only apologise to you and the other members of the forum regarding what has now become an unseemly disagreement with E. I found her comment of ” sticking your nose in” uncalled for, personal, and deeply insulting. Any involvement I've made on posts that hasn't been to comment on an historical question has been done to put a reasoned viewpoint across and/or to lend support to a fellow member when I believed some comments were becoming personal and getting out of hand (now I know how it feels!).

I have decided to remain on the forum as I enjoy it so much and find 99.9% of the members on here great people to know who have a keen and intelligent grasp of their subject and are tolerant and respectful to other members. As such I will in future avoid getting involved with posters who seem to have a different agenda to the question in hand, although I know it will be hard sometimes to just walk by on the other side of the road, so to speak.

Once again my apologies to you all for the row that has broken out on this subject, I do not believe many of the comments that have been made here were either necessary or justified but, from my viewpoint, comments on this matter are now closed.

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