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Honestly, Jane Seymour wasn't that bad of a person ...
December 2, 2011
9:48 am
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KarleeBoleyn
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I don't like her very much, as Anne is and always will be my favorite Queen, but Jane did reunite Henry with Elizabeth and Mary. Also, she was an obedient and trusting wife. I can say, truthfully, that I think we all give Jane too much of a hardship. Sure, she replaced Anne is Henry's bed and on the throne, but Anne did the exact same thing to KOA and in a much more ruthless way. NO. I am not sticking up for Jane because I don't like Anne. I'm just saying that maybe we should all look through Jane's eyes for once. 

Le Plus Heureux ♥ ~ Anne Boleyn//Toujours la reine

December 2, 2011
2:07 pm
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Mya Elise
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I'm confused about my feelings about Jane. Most of the times i can't really stand her but sometimes i really honestly try to understand her.

Okay, people on this site say Jane planned the downfall of Anne and all that, but people say Anne did that to Katherine too. People made up horrible rumors about Anne because of what happend to Katherine, the beloved Queen, and because of the rumors of that came up during her downfall. People may have made up stuff about Jane too because they were Anne supporters, and we dislike Jane because of what happen to Anne just like people dislike Anne because of what happend to Katherine. It's a never ending thing.

My conclusion is we didn't live back then so we do not know everything that happend 500 years ago and we never really will. I don't think it's right to hate on Jane but me, personally, i'm not a fan of hers. I'm an Anne Boleyn fan, i'm interested in Anne's story, Anne is the reason i'm on this site.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 2, 2011
8:56 pm
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Anyanka
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Depending on how you think Jane saw KoA's marriage to H8 means you have several viewpoints before you start.

1) If you feel Jane saw KoA's marriage valid and she actively accepted Henry's attentions prior to K's death, then she was undermining koA's marriage by being the other, other woman.

 

2) If J felt KoA's marriage was valid and the attentions happened after KoA died, then H was a free agent and accepting his advances were a presumption to a bethrothal

 

3) If J thought Anne's marriage was valid, then she was cheating either emonionally or physically with Henry.

 

Now at the time of Katherine's death, Jane had powerful backers..even more so than Anne at the start of her climb. The Imperial Party as well as some of Anne's ex-backers were firmly in Jane's corner and not above coaching her in how to behave.

Jane had to act to both encourage Henry and to rebuff him physically and emotionally, a hard act to keep doing for several weeks/months.

All the while being seen to be the chaste innocent modest lady.

 

I'm sure Jane never thought Henry/Cromwell would put Anne to death. Jane was part of KoA's household at the time of the annulment and would have been aware that the honourable escape of a convent was offered.

I believe Jane was lead to imagine this was the way Anne was going to be nullified. I imagine that once Jane realised Anne would feel the full force of Tudor Law, she was intelligent to realise that Anne's fate could be her's too.

Jane must have spent the second half of 1536 in fear until she finally concieved Edward and then she had to wait to see IF she could do what the ladies she displaced failed to do and hope against hope that she would not suffer the same result for her failure.

It's always bunnies.

December 2, 2011
9:29 pm
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Bella44
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Anyanka said:

 I'm sure Jane never thought Henry/Cromwell would put Anne to death. Jane was part of KoA's household at the time of the annulment and would have been aware that the honourable escape of a convent was offered.

I believe Jane was lead to imagine this was the way Anne was going to be nullified. I imagine that once Jane realised Anne would feel the full force of Tudor Law, she was intelligent to realise that Anne's fate could be her's too.

Jane must have spent the second half of 1536 in fear until she finally concieved Edward and then she had to wait to see IF she could do what the ladies she displaced failed to do and hope against hope that she would not suffer the same result for her failure.

 

___________________________________________________________________________________

 

I agree.  I can only imagine what was going through her head as the birth of her child drew near.  There was of course, that chance that she'd have a daughter.  She must have been in constant fear.

One thing I always wonder is if she'd lived, what would she have have thought of the way Edward grew up?  Would she have been disappointed in his religious choices?  I wonder what she would have thought about his treatment of Mary after she made an effort to befriend her….

December 3, 2011
4:54 am
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Neil Kemp
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KarleeBoleyn, I think you have a fair and valid point, not just about Jane, but regarding all of Henry's Queens. I find it incomprehensible that some people can dislike to the point of hatred a woman who has been dead for the best part of 500 years simply because of perceived wrongfulness against their favourite Queen. It may be an incommodious truth, but we must condone some of the actions that took place during that period in history when they are put into context with those times. We are sometimes guilty of viewing events through our modern standards and thus condemn someone from the standards of today without making due allowance regarding the expectations or normality of the times they lived in. To go into further depth regarding context would make this post insufferably long, so I will let that statement stand alone.

In conclusion I will suffice to say that I believe all of Henry's wives to have been remarkable women, after all, how many women get to marry a King! Yes, they had their faults, and we will all of course have our favourite(s), but I believe they are all deserving of equal and accordant respect. There are those that will be inconvincible of my argument and will doubtless disagree, but I think it's about time the nonsense that has sprung up recently on the forum regarding the various love/hate factions (including hate e-mails to Claire!) concerning Henry's wives ceased and that we respected not only all of these great women, but also those forum users who share differing viewpoints regarding one or all of them.

December 3, 2011
5:20 am
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Elliemarianna
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I personally dislike Jane. From the evidence, I come to the conclusion that she was not an innocent party in Anne's downfall, nor was she this angelic woman who saved Henry from his spiteful wife.

Chapys shows that Jane was an active member of the Roman Catholic faction at court, not some poor woman being used by them, she was part of them. She knew exactly what she was doing, and was completely focused on being Queen. The whole act of refusing Henry's gift of money and letter, yet accepting his portrait in a locket, sent mixed signals, no doubt to entice Henry. Chapys and Cromwell were in contact, and Jane in contact with them too, she would of known exactly what they were hoping to do. Jane was told to poison Henry's mind against Anne, which no doubt she did. 

Jane showed support for Catherine, yet began courting Henry while she was still alive, and there was a chance of reconciliation.

Chapys also said there were plenty of witnesses to state Jane was no virgin, so another lie there.

Jane was one of Anne's ladies, she would of known about the investigations going on. She would of also known of Anne's innocence, since Anne was ALWAYS with her ladies apart from when she was with the King. Jane did nothing to help Anne. I doubt Jane was in love with Henry, as by 1536 Henry was already obese, smelly and having violent mood swings, the reason she did it was politics and religion.

Jane is described as being submissive and demure, yet also haughty – so snobby basically… These traits don't really match up.

I personally don't find being submissive and a door mat a positive trait in anyone, especially when it's a dishonest representation of the real person. Jane had no conscience, and no scruples. She happily flaunted her mistress status in front of the pregnant Queen, and had absolutely no concern for Anne. As for being afraid, she knew what she was doing, she knew the risks. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.

I see Jane as a spiteful, two faced woman, who pretended to be something she was not to attract the King and support. She wanted Mary back in the succession so of course she supported her, as for Elizabeth, no doubt it was guilt for being partly responsible for killing her mother.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

December 3, 2011
9:50 am
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Mya Elise
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I'm in no way saying Jane was innocent in Anne's downfall, i don't believe she was this perfect person she's made out to be. The thing is though, we dislike Jane for being a part of Anne's downfall but Anne was a big part in Katherine's downfall too – And i know, i know, i know, Katherine didn't lose her head in the end like Anne but her treatment was sometimes very unecessarily harsh. Nothing that happend to Anne or Katherine was right and yes, i do believe Jane was a part of Anne's downfall in some way. I also agree about how Jane still went after Henry when she was supposed to think his marriage to Katherine was right and lawful, um obviously not because she decided to go after the King herself. <— And this is the very unfair thing, Anne was literally hated because of what happend to Katherine but Jane wasn't hated when the same thing happend to Anne, If Jane was willing to go after a King who was still “rightfully” married to his 1st Queen then that would make her in no way better than Anne.

Like i said i'm not a fan of Jane's but in certain ways I do feel bad for her.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 3, 2011
1:53 pm
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Bill1978
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Well said Neil and Mya. And if you look at it, you can view all of Henry's wives in a bad light.

 

KoA – Should have just concented to a divorce straight away and not drag things out. Wasn't the virgin she claimed to be, cared more about Spain than England

Anne B- Was a home wrecker and a manipulative bitch

Jane – A home wrecker and a manipulative cow

AoC – Was godddamn ugly and a waste of Henry's time

Katherine H – Tore apart a marriage and then cheated on the king cause she was a dumb whore

Catherine P – Just a gold digger and glorified nurse who just passed the time for the King to die so she could marry her true love.

Or you can look for the good in all the wives and realise that each one contributed something poisitive to the annals of history. I find this one less stressful and more enjoyable.

As it is often said history is in the eye of the beholder.

I think before people go bashing Jane to the hilt, we need to stop and think about the emails that Claire gets involving pure hate for Anne. Cause really saying nasty things about Jane cause she 'dethroned' Anne is no better than people who say natsy things about Anne cause she 'dethroned' Katherine. There's sharing views and then there is just hate that is hypocritical.

December 3, 2011
5:25 pm
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Elliemarianna
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Bill1978 said:

I think before people go bashing Jane to the hilt, we need to stop and think about the emails that Claire gets involving pure hate for Anne. Cause really saying nasty things about Jane cause she 'dethroned' Anne is no better than people who say natsy things about Anne cause she 'dethroned' Katherine. There's sharing views and then there is just hate that is hypocritical.

Hate is a very strong word, I don't hate Jane, I just dislike her from what I have read of her, and that is my opinion.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

December 4, 2011
1:22 pm
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Sharon
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 Each of Henry’s wives have qualities to be admired; and each one of them were remarkable in their own right. I have grown to have a healthy respect for every one of these women.  I seem to have a mental block only when it comes to Henry himself.  I cannot seem to get past his selfish, spoiled, child-like behaviour.

Karlee,   

Jane was caught in the whirlwind that was Henry.  She was not perfect, but she certainly wasn’t a bad person.  She was a product of her time.  I think she wanted to be married and to have children.  Henry gave her that.  She must have been so scared of what Henry would do every month that she did not get pregnant.  When she did get pregnant, she must have had a genuine fear of having a daughter. It could not have been easy living with that kind of fear.  Henry wasn’t a very loving husband while Jane was alive.  Within days of the marriage he was crying the blues because he had seen a couple of pretty women at court and he made remarks that he should have waited before marrying Jane.  He was always asking her when she was going to get pregnant.  When she tried to voice an opinion, he told her to keep quiet.  Through the entire marriage, her happiest time must have been when she was pregnant.  After she died, and only then, did Henry decide to show her any respect.

We don’t know what these women thought.  We can only try to understand.  They lived in a time when men ruled everything.  Including them.  I try to put myself in their shoes, and I don’t like the fit.  I can’t for one minute understand what Katherine’s pain must have been like when the man she loved with her whole heart for 24 years decides he doesn’t want her anymore because she is too old.  I can’t imagine what it would be like to face the sword as Anne did.  I can’t picture myself being afraid that if I produced a girl my husband could decide to be rid of me in a manner of his choosing. (as Jane, Anne and Katherine feared.)  I can’t see myself being brought before a king to be married as Anne of Cleves was and have him make fun of me.  Even in my wildest imagination I cannot picture making love to a fat, smelly man who is old enough to be my grandfather as Katherine Howard did.  Nor can I picture my husband making me think I will be arrested for my religious beliefs as Katherine Parr did.  I admire all of Henry’s wives; and I blame him for what these women had to endure because of him.

December 5, 2011
9:32 am
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Mya Elise
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Once again, Sharon gets a standing ovation!

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 7, 2011
2:11 am
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Sophie1536
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I don't dislike Jane at all, she's not my favourite but I honestly don't see why people can hate her so much as NONE of us know 100% what took place over 500 years or so ago. We only know as much as in written in transcripts and books nobody knows the ins and outs of all the circumstances that took place so long ago.

I respect her as one of Henry's queens as I respect all of Henry's queens and to me hating someone that died so long ago is pretty futile, Jane for good or bad didn't have much life as she died in giving Henry a son so personally I think that's sad anyway……. 

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December 7, 2011
9:46 am
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Mya Elise
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This is all kind of the same as with celebrities. In a way…

We read so many things about them and on magazines they make headlines that don't really make them seem all that great but 95 % of the time the things in and on those magazines are completely fake. People make up lies about celebrities all the time to make money and keep vicious gossip going on and on. Some things might be true but people still like to exaggerate stuff, like, make it worse and the bad thing is that us readers believe this stuff which isn't fair.

I don't know if this is the best example of this situation but it's still very similar. The truth is we don't know everything that goes on in other peoples lives whether it's now or 500 years ago. We may read things but who says it's all one hundred percent completely true?

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 8, 2011
12:45 am
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Impish_Impulse
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I look at it this way: I believe Anne firmly believed Henry’s marriage to Katharine had never been valid, and that therefore she was perfectly within her rights to contract to and marry a man she believed to be single.

I believe Jane also firmly believed that Henry’s marriage to Anne had never been valid. BUT – her belief of that was based on believing Henry’s marriage to Katharine had always been valid. And Katharine was still alive, so she had no business taking up with a married man. Persuading him to dump a woman she considered to be his mistress was one thing, but throwing herself at a man she considered to be lawfully married – and to a woman she had served and claimed to admire is something else entirely. I dislike her for that. I guess she was lucky that Katharine died before Anne. What would she have done if Katharine were still alive when Anne died? Would she have gone ahead and married him anyway?

                        survivor ribbon                             

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          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

December 11, 2011
7:33 pm
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Mya Elise
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There are alot of people out there that don't like Anne Boleyn at all, i was just trying to say that there are people that hate Anne and don't support anything we fans say.

I hope theres no serious hating mail.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 12, 2011
8:06 pm
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Anyanka
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Claire posted this on the main board

 

/16864/anne-boleyn-did-not-get-what-was-coming-to-her-or-claires-rant-of-the-week/

It's always bunnies.

December 13, 2011
9:40 am
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Anne fan
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I found Jane really hard to get a handle on when I was writing about the six wives. Of all of them she's the one whose personality doesn't come across the centuries. That might be because she was the 16th Century man's ideal woman – peaceful, not given to stating her opinions and confining her activities to the domestic sphere (how many pearls her waiting women had on their girdles and what sort of hoods they should wear, etc).

 

I don't know if any of you have the DVDs of the BBC series the Six Wives of Henry VIII which were broadcast in the 1970s? (Dorothy Tutin played Anne) but I think Anne Stallybrass does a good job with Jane – self-effacing and scared.

December 13, 2011
9:59 am
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Neil Kemp
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Anne, Sadly, I'm old enough to have seen the series when it first aired and I thought Dorothy Tutin (sadly, now no longer with us) played Anne very well (it was however very much a performance befitting BBC drama of that time – somewhat stagy). Anne Stallybrass was also a fine actress of her era and is probably best remembered for playing James Onedin's wife in the BBC series “The Onedin Line”, which I also remember first hand!

December 13, 2011
6:06 pm
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Mya Elise
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Maybe thats what Jane wanted though, maybe she didn't want to be out there and talked about like the other wives did. Maybe she just wanted a quiet non glamour life which wasn't possible cause she was married to a King. Besides that fact she married a King, maybe she just wanted to be out of the limelight and leave the trouble stuff to Henry.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

December 17, 2011
1:44 am
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KarleeBoleyn said:

I don’t like her very much, as Anne is and always will be my favorite Queen, but Jane did reunite Henry with Elizabeth and Mary. Also, she was an obedient and trusting wife. I can say, truthfully, that I think we all give Jane too much of a hardship. Sure, she replaced Anne is Henry’s bed and on the throne, but Anne did the exact same thing to KOA and in a much more ruthless way. NO. I am not sticking up for Jane because I don’t like Anne. I’m just saying that maybe we should all look through Jane’s eyes for once. 

No. No no no no no. No.

No.

The relationship between Katheryn of Aragon and Henry was in decline by 1514 and at an end when Henry met and fell for Anne.

The relationship between Anne and Henry was a passionate true love match. Sadly, Henry wandered and had affairs. One of them would have been the seymour exept she was schooled to keep her legs shut and to whisper disent. Jane had a hand in the murdering of Anne- Anne did not do any such thing to Katheryn, she said a few nasty things yes, out of frustration that her marriage was delayed, but she did not do any thing to harm, let alone kill Katheryn- or her relationship with Henry.

Jane was told openly to keep out of politics, any discision to reunite with his daughters was Henry's. After their submission to him.

Yes, lets look through Janes eyes. A crown, a crown, a dead body, a crown, 5 other dead bodies, a crown, a crown.

Jane Seymour was a nasty piece of work. Clever enough to keep her trap shut, lucky enough to produce a boy. She did what she did out of ambition, I doubt even that she had any love for Henry at all.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

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