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Catherine Howard-I think I'm beginning to understand her!
August 14, 2011
1:32 pm
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Anyanka
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Claire-Louise said:

Mademoiselle Mya said:

Then woman were only good for a few things, or so men thought. And i am so very glad Anne Boleyn went against that and i'm glad that our world is no longer like that. I'd go crazy if i had to listen and obey to everything a man said.


70% of men where I live think we are still in the Tudor times Laugh
 


There's forums out on the internet where even women think that. It's shocking to discover seemly well educated women arguing that all women should be submissive to thier husbands/fathers/sons etc.

It's always bunnies.

August 14, 2011
1:41 pm
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Claire-Louise
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Anyanka said:

Claire-Louise said:

Mademoiselle Mya said:

Then woman were only good for a few things, or so men thought. And i am so very glad Anne Boleyn went against that and i'm glad that our world is no longer like that. I'd go crazy if i had to listen and obey to everything a man said.


70% of men where I live think we are still in the Tudor times Laugh
 


There's forums out on the internet where even women think that. It's shocking to discover seemly well educated women arguing that all women should be submissive to thier husbands/fathers/sons etc.


Yeah, I know loads of women who have this attitude…about 2 years ago I was in a relationship with a really badly possesive guy and when I ended it, there was friends of mine who were like.”.why did you end it? it's better than not having a boyfriend!” when I explained that I couldn't carry on being told who I could talk to, where I could go, and what I could wear; a couple of girls said 'well at least he showed an interest in you” and another “I wish I had a boyfriend that was more controlling”

Crazy people!!! it makes me sad Cry

August 14, 2011
2:10 pm
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DuchessofBrittany
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Mademoiselle Mya said:

Yes but back then the girls were expected to turn into women at the ages of 12 at least. They weren't aloud to enjoy a proper childhood like we do today.  It was kind of the same with boys also back then.

When their families thought the girls were ready for marriage and child bearing then thats what they would do. They had no choice.

I agree that Kathryn should of had an education, some sort of education… it didn't need to be the best but still. You should also understand that there were very many young ladies (and gentlemen) where Kathryn was brought up and perhaps the Duchess did not care whether all the kids she looked after had an education. She probably did not know half of their names! I also agree that Kathryn was young and and immature and for us now, it's okay and is expected but for them back then it was not to be tolerated. Then woman were only good for a few things, or so men thought. And i am so very glad Anne Boleyn went against that and i'm glad that our world is no longer like that. I'd go crazy if i had to listen and obey to everything a man said.


I agree with everything here. CH found herself in a society that did not place a high value of certain things we place high expectations on. Baldwin-Smith does an excellent job of immersing the reader in the world of CH. It is one of the better accounts of Tudor life for young women in the 1530's and 1540's. As a student of culture, I was enthralled.

 I just want to say that I understand completely the cultural values of the Tudor era, and the expectations placed on girls and boys. I may not have made that clear in my previous post. I was speaking of my views of CH, and how they juxtapose to the values of Tudor society, and CH's early years, and the repercussions for later decisions.

I am aware of the numerous boys and girls in the dowager duchess house, and I do doubt her ability to know them all. Baldwin-Smith writes about this. It left me thinking of co-ed dorms in my undergrad days Lots of parties, sex, drinking, and wild nights.I did not participate out of fear and my certain conservative ideals. So I can only imagine what life was like for CH.

There are plenty of men in this world who still hold archaic ideas about the place of women in society. Sadly, there are losts of women who would do anything a man said. Sad, but true. I remain single because of love my freedom and independence, and would not react well being told what to do, especially when it constricts my access to friends and family. So many of my friends fell prey to these kinds of men, and some still refuse to get out.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

August 14, 2011
4:26 pm
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Anne fan
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I too can't get over the number of men who have very archaic views. I live on my own and have had a couple of approaches – not because the bloke likes me but because 'I haven't seen a man around'. I presume they're after a live-in cleaner…

I went with Starkey's view that CH and Culpepper didn't get round to having a physical affair when I wrote about her. I think she's the most tragic of Henry's wives because there was never anyone who cared about her and put her interests first. At least Anne had George.

August 14, 2011
9:15 pm
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Mya Elise
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: ) Must be horrible. Pshhh men…

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 15, 2011
12:10 pm
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Sharon
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Claire-Louise said:

Yeah, I know loads of women who have this attitude…about 2 years ago I was in a relationship with a really badly possesive guy and when I ended it, there was friends of mine who were like.”.why did you end it? it's better than not having a boyfriend!” when I explained that I couldn't carry on being told who I could talk to, where I could go, and what I could wear; a couple of girls said 'well at least he showed an interest in you” and another “I wish I had a boyfriend that was more controlling”
Crazy people!!! it makes me sad Cry


Okay…this makes me crazy.  Claire-Louise, Let me just say I'm so glad to hear you are out of that relationship.  Geesh! 

August 15, 2011
8:05 pm
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Anyanka
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Anne fan said:

I too can't get over the number of men who have very archaic views. I live on my own and have had a couple of approaches – not because the bloke likes me but because 'I haven't seen a man around'. I presume they're after a live-in cleaner…

 


Hey I'd love a live-in cleaner….

It's always bunnies.

August 15, 2011
8:09 pm
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Anyanka
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Sharon said:

Claire-Louise said:

Yeah, I know loads of women who have this attitude…about 2 years ago I was in a relationship with a really badly possesive guy and when I ended it, there was friends of mine who were like.”.why did you end it? it's better than not having a boyfriend!” when I explained that I couldn't carry on being told who I could talk to, where I could go, and what I could wear; a couple of girls said 'well at least he showed an interest in you” and another “I wish I had a boyfriend that was more controlling”

Crazy people!!! it makes me sad Cry


Okay…this makes me crazy.  Claire-Louise, Let me just say I'm so glad to hear you are out of that relationship.  Geesh!

 


Every so often I remember to thank whatever fate alllowed me to fall in love with a man who didn't mind me working and when circumstances changed was as happy to have a SAHW/M to our children.
 

Now All 3 are at school, he's happy to support me returning to the work-force or into higher education.

It's always bunnies.

August 16, 2011
11:50 am
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Sharon
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Having been married for 35 years I can honestly say that my husband has never been able to tell me what to do as far as my friends and family are concerned. For that matter, he has never tried to tell me what to do in any aspect of my life. Unless I ask for his opinion on something, he pretty much lets me make my own judgments. But some women today… I really don't get it.  I'm reading some of these comments about what the girls of today are doing to themselves by wanting to be controlled by their men and it just blows me away. When we were getting married, back in the day, my friends and I refused to say the word obey in our wedding vows.  And our men didn't want us saying it either. I wasn't going to take a vow I didn't think I could keep.  Do I sound old?  When did the Middle Ages return? 

My heart certainly goes out to Catherine. In Tudor times women were less than nothing.  They were merely baby making machines.  Catherine on the other hand wanted to explore life and have fun doing it. Although it was a really foolish choice, I don't blame her for the Culpepper affair.  I cannot picture her making love to that sick, smelly old man and being happy about it. Being so young and vital, I just don't know how she did it.  She wasn't your typical Tudor girl.  She was very aware of what enjoyable bedsport was all about.  I think she believed she was safe because of the way Henry treated her.  She was pampered and given whatever she wished.   

I have often wondered what she knew of her cousin Anne's downfall.  It was well known, I assume, that Anne was beheaded.  Even if she didn't know the reasons, you would think she would be leary of this king.  It was only five years later.  I would think her Grandmother and Norfolk, who prepared her for Henry, would have told her what to avoid when married to him.

It's hard to say whether she loved Culpepper or not. I keep coming back to her testimony.  She blamed him, and he blamed her.  That just doesn't sound like love to me.  It sounds like a way to pass the time and add a little excitement to her life, all the while thinking they would not be caught.

August 16, 2011
2:35 pm
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Claire-Louise
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I agree Sharon, I don't understand the way a lot of modern women think; we have so many opportunities available to us now-why not take them? I think the media is partially to blame, I think 99% of music videos objectify women and the women in the videos are shown as being more than happy about being treated this way. A lot of young impressionable women are watching these and thinking 'this is what I'm meant to be'

I can't tell if Catherine did love Culpeper or if it was just infatuation; I believe she probably thought she was in love with him in any case.

August 16, 2011
3:13 pm
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Mya Elise
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I've seen so many talk shows with women using the excuse 'But i love him'. Love should not hurt nor be told what to do, how to do it, and when. I think that men who believe they are in control of their girlfriends or wifes would have been alot happier living in the 16th century. Women are just as strong and mighty as men, heck! We push 7 or 8 pound human beings out of our bodies.. i'd love to see men do that (without drugs of course).

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

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