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Anne the sword/Katherine the axe
February 22, 2012
9:14 am
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Elliemarianna
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Maybe he had second thoughts and was trying to find a way out if it. Obviously the sentence had already been passed so there was nothing much he could do. The way he ran to Jane immediately after her execution was almost like rebound. Maybe Jane helped him to forget what he had done…

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

February 22, 2012
10:13 am
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Sharon
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  There is the possibility that Anne mistakenly thought her execution would take place the day after her brother and the other men had died.  On the morning of the 18th she made her innocence known to Kingston while receiving the sacrament.  He passed this info on to Cromwell.  Maybe that is when the order came to rid the grounds of all foreigners.  Hence the delay.  Since she had proclaimed her innocence during mass, maybe they thought she would do so in public before she died.  They wouldn't want any ambassadors writing home that Anne had died bravely while proclaiming her innocence.

As to Henry and second thoughts?  The time for those thoughts had long since passed.  He never had any intention of stopping Anne's execution.  He couldn't get to Jane fast enough.  He heard that cannon go off announcing Anne's death, and maybe he felt a little pang, but that didn't stop him from getting on that barge to get to his new life with his soon to be new wife.  If he was feeling any kind of guilt or thoughts that Anne was innocent, he hid them well.  All I see is a cold-hearted, calculating so-and-so here. But that's just me with my thoughts about Henry. Yell

Ellie, Henry seemed to almost always have a rebound.  He had another woman to replace Katherine, one to replace Anne, another to replace Anne of Cleves, and he was quick to find another one after Katherine Howard.  The only reason there wasn't a woman to replace Jane quickly was, (A) He wasn't expecting Jane to die on him. (B) No woman in her right mind would have him.

March 4, 2012
3:09 pm
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Boleyn
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Bella44 said

I don’t think Katherine assumed she’d be executed by sword.  I think she only spent a few days in the Tower and asked for the block to practice on the night before she knew she was to die.  But I’ve always wondered if the act of attainder passed against Katherine had anything to do with it?  Of course the act meant she didn’t get a trial like Anne either.  Maybe the axe was just the standard method for anyone under the act of attainder.

But then Henry had had some time to fine tune the whole executing-your-wife thing too….!

This is a good point Bella.. Although being un attainder, I don’t think really meant much to do with how you would die. Anne set a pressidence, when being executed, the general way of someone to be burned or beheaded was with the axe, no matter who they were, I don’t think we ever really know why Henry chose the sword over the axe with Anne, but I think it might have been some sort of a sick joke of Henry’s that he played on Anne. K.H, being put under attainder just meant that she wouldn’t be able to speak out in court for her defence. Henry was afraid of what K.H would say about him. Remember Anne was supposed to have said that he was no good in bed. What if K.H had said that too? I mentioned in another posting about this situation with K.H on why I thought Henry had to execute her rather than send her off into the sunset etc, and I still feel that I may have hit on a nerve with it.. Henry was a vain, cowardly man and he wanted woman to adore him etc. One woman saying he was crap in bed was bad enough, but 2 would have disasterous.
The attainder act I think was just another one of those looney ideas that were around at the time. It just meant that you had no right to speak out in your defence, and anything that you may have said wasn’t listened to anyway. In short it was your death warrant, end of story, the only words that would be listened to were by your confessor.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 4, 2012
3:48 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

  There is the possibility that Anne mistakenly thought her execution would take place the day after her brother and the other men had died.  On the morning of the 18th she made her innocence known to Kingston while receiving the sacrament.  He passed this info on to Cromwell.  Maybe that is when the order came to rid the grounds of all foreigners.  Hence the delay.  Since she had proclaimed her innocence during mass, maybe they thought she would do so in public before she died.  They wouldn’t want any ambassadors writing home that Anne had died bravely while proclaiming her innocence.

As to Henry and second thoughts?  The time for those thoughts had long since passed.  He never had any intention of stopping Anne’s execution.  He couldn’t get to Jane fast enough.  He heard that cannon go off announcing Anne’s death, and maybe he felt a little pang, but that didn’t stop him from getting on that barge to get to his new life with his soon to be new wife.  If he was feeling any kind of guilt or thoughts that Anne was innocent, he hid them well.  All I see is a cold-hearted, calculating so-and-so here. But that’s just me with my thoughts about Henry. Yell

Ellie, Henry seemed to almost always have a rebound.  He had another woman to replace Katherine, one to replace Anne, another to replace Anne of Cleves, and he was quick to find another one after Katherine Howard.  The only reason there wasn’t a woman to replace Jane quickly was, (A) He wasn’t expecting Jane to die on him. (B) No woman in her right mind would have him.

Nicely said and very true.. After Jane died Henry did have a little trouble finding a woman to marry him, I can’t say I’m suprised can you? Mary of Guise, who I understand had dithered for a while in marrying James 5th of Scotland, quickly made her mind up and married him, when Henry put forward his suit, Christina of Denmark, said of him that if she had 2 heads he would be welcome to one of them, and refused him too. To be honest I think if Anne of Cleves had been told the truth about Henry etc, she too would have refused him as well. AOC seems to me at least to be very much misunderstood, everyone assumed that she wasn’t clever, I don’t think she was as clever as KOA or AB but she certainly processed enough intelligence to know not to look a gift horse in the mouth and despite the disaster called her marriage she came out of it rather well, and I believe was happy with her lot. Henry was a little like a rubber ball bouncing from one woman to the next, and not just with his wives either his misstresses didn’t know if he would be bedding them or some other woman that night. Although as he got older and more like a blubber ball than a rubber ball I rather think his mistresses were thin on the ground too. Did he have mistresses, after Jane’s death? I don’t think he did when he was married to her, or at least I’ve never found any evidence of mistresses during that time? Poor K.H I think must have felt like a lamb at the slaughter, when she married Henry sure she liked all the shiny things and dresses etc, but I still think she must have felt totally horrified to be married to the discusting stinky blob Henry was, so you really can’t blame her for going off the rails, so to speak, she was a fool, but then don’t all teenagers make screwups? As for K.P perhaps again she felt like she had no choice, she was in love with Thomas Seymour, but Henry had made it clear he wanted her as his wife. How could she have said “NO” to Henry and come away without losing her head and Thomas’s too most likely, the fact that she said that “God” had told her to marry Henry was nicely done, and perhaps even appealed to Henry’s sence of humour, maybe. But again even K.P must have felt some revoltion, against old stinky blubber box, trying to get his way with her night after night.
However again as she had already had 2 elderly husbands she at least had the maturity to be able to deal with him, although it can’t have been pleasent having to dress his ulcerated leg, and put up with his irrational temper tantrums.. I suppose we can be thankful that he didn’t have a 2 year old temper tantrum like King John used to have, where he would roll around on the floor kicking out at anyone who came near him and screaming, and stuffing the rushes from the floor in his mouth and chewing them. If Henry did that I wonder how the heck and just how many men it would take to get him back on his feet again, personally if I was K.P if he had a temper like this I would just roll him into his room and leave him there to get on with it and let him sulk.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 5, 2012
10:16 am
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Boleyn
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E said

Thanks Sharon and Anyanka.. It gives me a whole new perspective on Anne’s execution- I’ll have to pay closer attention when rereading Weir’s The Lady in The Tower! Her execution was definitely a foregone conclusion. What a terrible thing for Henry to do- after all, he persued her. Is it uncouth of me to wish to go back in time, kick him in the nuts and then run off? Surprised

LOL E.. I think we’d all like to go back through time and give Henry a few swift kicks where it hurts to be honest, and seriously think he would have trouble walking for a few months afterwards too, and not just because of his ulcerated leg either. LOL.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 9, 2012
2:01 am
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Sophie1536
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I wonder if Katherine did ask at some point if she was going to be executed by sword like Anne?

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March 9, 2012
9:57 am
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Boleyn
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Sophie1536 said

I wonder if Katherine did ask at some point if she was going to be executed by sword like Anne?

I don’t think so, I think she knew that she would be executed by the axe as that was the excepted norm of things. It may have entered her head to ask for the sword, but if it did I have found no record for her request or the reply. as Already been pointed out by someone else she knew that she was to be executed by the axe, as she asked for thee block to practise laying her head the night before her execution.
Katherine showed more dignity and perhaps decorum at her execution then she even did in her life.
No one really knows why Henry chose the Sword with Anne. Perhaps Anne herself made the request, as she perhaps had seen executions carried out in France by the sword, and equally so must have either seen or heard on how messy executions by the axe could get. So perhaps it was her choice to be executed by the sword as it would be over before anyone had time to say ouch.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 16, 2012
1:44 pm
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Sophie1536
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What suprised me is that he beheaded Katherine as he was so hurt and annoyed with her that he didn’t change the beheading to one of burning as he was first going to with Anne, maybe as hurt as he was he felt some compassion for the young woman Confused

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March 16, 2012
3:15 pm
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Boleyn
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Sophie1536 said

What suprised me is that he beheaded Katherine as he was so hurt and annoyed with her that he didn’t change the beheading to one of burning as he was first going to with Anne, maybe as hurt as he was he felt some compassion for the young woman Confused

Interesting thought Sophie, I don’t think compassion where Henry was concerned, he had no choice but to behead her, as it would have looked a bit odd to the rest of the world that he had K.H burned whilst her cousin Anne had the sword, and then questions would have been asked to why.
K.H was after all of the nobility even before she became Queen and burning someone of nobel blood just simply wasn’t done. Even nobels and royality had a certain etiquette to the manner of death they were sentenced too. The common riff raff like you and I would have had the sentence that we will be burned or beheaded at the King’s pleasure and 9 times out of 10, you would be burned unless you were lucky to know someone who would at least get the King to show some mercy or had greased enough palms to get someone to ask the King to show you mercy and commute your sentence to beheading. By the way the old bag of gunpowder trick around your waist or neck to hasten your end is simply just a flash in the pan it did nothing, but just create a firework blowing up in your face and scorching you

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 16, 2012
5:17 pm
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Anyanka
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Anne was the first queen to suffer beheading so I think Henry wanted a show of his mercy in a public fashion.

He’d really got into the swing of beheading people with royal blood or title by the time he got to KH. He didn’t want to show Kathryn the same mercy since she had shown Henry how old and laughable he was. He simply wanted to close that chapter of his life and find the next missus.

It's always bunnies.

March 19, 2012
10:23 am
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Sophie1536
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Anyanka I do love the way you’ve worded that “He’d really got into the swing of beheading people…..” It’s so true as Henry just didn’t value anyone’s life in fact I think beheading, burning, pressing, boiling it was all the same to Henry maybe he just changed the different methods of despatching people out of bordom……

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March 19, 2012
11:40 am
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Sharon
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Notice Henry didn’t attend any of these killings. It was easy for Henry to order the execution of people. He never had to see them again or give them another thought. Once he got the verdict he wanted, his job was done. I suppose he felt he was being merciful by not burning Katherine.

March 20, 2012
7:29 am
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Notice Henry didn’t attend any of these killings. It was easy for Henry to order the execution of people. He never had to see them again or give them another thought. Once he got the verdict he wanted, his job was done. I suppose he felt he was being merciful by not burning Katherine.

Sharon I don’t think Burning KH would have entered Henry’s head. As I said in my previous post KH was of the nobility even before she was Queen so that fact alone would have spared her the stake. Henry was a cruel man, but I don’t think Henry would have stooped to actually burning KH even if he had wanted to. I think he did love her deep down so the axe would have been a quick and fairly painless, way to die.
Poor KH her life had really just began and then it was taken from her just like that. This is where, we are very different to ourselves from 500 years ago.. and it’s hard for us to believe that someone could be so cruel to a mear child. But try to put yourself in the person you were 500 years ago. it wasn’t considered cruel or unjust, the girl had done wrong she shamed the King and embarrassed the Royal family in the eyes of the rest of the world and therefore deserved her fate. To coin a phrase “off with her head”

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 20, 2012
8:53 am
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Sharon
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I was being fecitious. I do not think Henry would have burned Katherine. Yes, her punishment for her crimes, was death. No way around that.

March 20, 2012
12:32 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

I was being fecitious. I do not think Henry would have burned Katherine. Yes, her punishment for her crimes, was death. No way around that.

It does make me wonder why Henry wasn’t at these executions, but there again I don’t think he attended any of the executions in his reign?
or even if any Kings after the Conqueror attended executions. I know in Saxon times if a person was found guilty of a crime it was generally the head of the villiage who actually carried out the executions, the next best thing to the King actually doing it.
Although having said that Margaret of Anjou, was a bit of a blood thirsty cow as was Isabella (the she wolf) of France and they attended a few executions.
Isabella’s most famous execution of a rival was the De spencers, who she executed in Hereford Market square, whilst it was said Edward looked on Hmm maybe. Anyway she tied the de spencers naked to a ladder and built a huge fire in the square. The reason for tying the despencers to a ladder is so that the populus and possibly Edward could see what she would do to all those who opposed her will. She then got her executioner to cut off the privates of the despensers and chuck them in the fire and then pushed the ladders down into the flames face first and the despencers were obvisiously burnt. I know Hereford Market Square well and there are few plagues around the square marking the historic events that took place there, and of course Owen Tudor was executed there too. He went to his death and said and to think this head once lay in the lap of a Queen. It was said that when his head was cut off a mad woman siezed his head and refused to let it go for a few days, she combed his hair and washed his face, and continued to talk to him as if he was still alive. Some rumours say that this mad woman was in fact Queen Katherine. Nah not possible However I think it’s possible this mad woman was a woman called Margaret, who Owen met shortly after Katherine died.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 20, 2012
1:01 pm
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Sharon
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Now see, I would go mad like Margaret if I had to watch someone I loved beheaded in front of me. It had to affect people. If Owen Tudor ‘knew’ this woman, she probably wasn’t nuts before they killed him. I can’t imagine him being with a crazy person. But who knows?
I don’t think Henry attended any of the death’s of the people he ordered executed. I just don’t think it was done. Women can be ruthless when they have been wronged. Isabella and Margaret of Anjou had definitely been wronged. I actually do understand Isabella. Edward treated Isabella, who was a princess of France, like a piece of dirt for years. She needed and received her revenge.

March 21, 2012
1:56 am
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Sophie1536
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Would Henry have thought different IF he’d have attended ANY of the executions? He loved More, could he have watched him die knowing HE had caused it?
It was all so easy for Henry to put pen to paper and order an execution (Even for people he loved) but would it have been so easy to witness it too???

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March 21, 2012
6:35 am
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Boleyn
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Sophie1536 said

Would Henry have thought different IF he’d have attended ANY of the executions? He loved More, could he have watched him die knowing HE had caused it?
It was all so easy for Henry to put pen to paper and order an execution (Even for people he loved) but would it have been so easy to witness it too???

Actually Sophie you could be onto something here. Perhaps if he’d of witnesssed Buckingham’s, Fisher’s and More’s death’s, and even going back as far as Dudley’s and Empson’s death’s at the start of his reign. (Dudley and Empson were his Father’s tax collectors) he perhaps wouldn’t have been so quick to sign his name to any death warrant. Which makes me think that even when he was younger before he became King did Henry actually witness any executions at all?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 31, 2012
12:40 am
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Sophie1536
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Do you think the ordinary people of Tudor England would believe that Henry was REALLY going to execute a Queen of England?
I’ve often wondered if the public thought that Anne would be reprieved at the last moment?

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March 31, 2012
12:35 pm
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Elliemarianna
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Sophie1536 said

Do you think the ordinary people of Tudor England would believe that Henry was REALLY going to execute a Queen of England?
I’ve often wondered if the public thought that Anne would be reprieved at the last moment?

Anne was the first Queen to be executed in England. Others had been accused of treason, adultery or witchcraft and got away with imprisonment or confiscation of property and title. It was unheard of that a Queen would suffer such a fate, but then to many she was not the ‘real’ queen anyway.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

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