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Anne of Cleves: did'nt Henry killed her too?
October 20, 2009
8:14 pm
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Lexy
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Ok Anneof Cleves survived her brief wedding with Henry. OK she gained lands, castles and the title of King's sister. Ok she's often opposed to Katherine of Aragon or our beloved Anne, but I'm convinced that she indirectly died of what the King decided for her. As tjeir wedding was annuled on the base of her previous engagement to the previous engagement with the Duke of Lorraine's son. So she couldn't contract another wedding and had to remain a childless spinster for the rest of her life. It broke her heart of course, since she had shown maternal instincts toward Elizabeth and Edward. But we shouldn't forget that she died of breast cancer, and there are statistics proving that childless woman are more exposed to that form of disease. I've nothing against women who decide not to have children, I'm pretty convinced that women's body are theirs and only theirs. and chosing is a right our mothers and grandmothers fought for. But the problem exists, I think it has to do with hormons. Even if I'm wrong, and I may be, Henry prevented Anne from being a mother, what I think she deeply wanted

October 20, 2009
9:23 pm
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Belle
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Very interesting post Lexy.  I see your point, but from what I've read is she was very happy and content to have the life she did especially since she was away from her family who treated her horribly.  She was also very happy to have cheated death, because she had a fear that she was going to die the same way Anne had.  And the king treated her really well after they divorced.  Although it's sad that she never married or had children, I think her life was pretty peaceful considering what his other wives went through and I think she knew that and was grateful for it, besides she got to live in Hever Castle-how great would that be? 

I do agree that Henry did deprive Anne from being a mother.  But as queen back then you didn't raise your children, so she probably knew that was going to happen before she had Elizabeth, regardless it's still sad.

October 29, 2009
1:02 pm
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Claire
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Hi Lexy,

Where did you find her cause of death? That is an interesting theory about her cause of death. I think she was relatively happy with things because she certainly did not want to return home to her brother and she seemed to like England. I think she did quite well out of the annulment, being given quite a few estates and being well looked after, and she was close to both Mary and Elizabeth, particularly Elizabeth.

I think she died at the age of 41 and seeing as the average age of death was around 35 in Tudor times, I think she did ok. It is sad that she did not marry again and have a family but perhaps she was happy with her life, after all she had escaped a rather demanding family and escaped life at the English court with all of its intrigues, plots and gossip. I imagine her as happy and relieved that she had such a lucky escape.

Have you read Elizabeth Norton's book on her? I haven't but it's on my huge list of must-reads. I'd love to know more about this Anne.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

October 30, 2009
1:10 am
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Gina
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Ooohh, Interesting idea!

I think that Anne was resigned to a spinster life because of the \”pre-contract\” excuse that Henry used to get out of his marriage to her.  Which of course would not allow anyone else to step up to marry her.  She would have been quite a catch for a money hungry rogue otherwise. With all the land and homes that were left to her! 

I often wonder if the statements that King Henry made against her spread like gossip? (the slack breast comment, the smelly comment, etc.) which would also stop any potential suitors.

At least she did leave with her head attached! She enjoyed her new homes, wealth and cuisine from what I have read! She was not forced to leave the country or a nunnery.

XO-Gina

November 2, 2009
12:17 pm
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missisGG
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I think it is unlikely she would have had children with Henry anyway since it appears he was pretty infertile by this time. Henry didn't like her and given the situation he probably did the best thing he could for her, he had to find a reason for her not to be his wife and I think a precontract was quite a nice way compared to previous wives! At least he didn't accuse her of been a witch, treason or incest! Henry was also a victim of this arrangement, his advisors probably had a good idea of the type of woman he was attracted to and how passionate he was about relationships and took no notice of these factors. Then again Henry could have been more of a gentleman and I do think in those days lots of people put up with wives and husbands they weren't that keen on! Does the saying 'you have made your bed now lie in it' come into mind….?!

Lots of women are deprived of having children for various reasons, health reasons, too old, partner doesnt want children, not enough money etc etc. Personally I might not be able to have children because I have cystic fibrosis, however I don't blame my parents for giving it to me through their genes! Sometimes its what life hands you, its not always someone elses fault.

If she wanted a child so much perhaps she could have had a child out of wedlock, she had the money and estates to support herself? I know it was frowned upon but was there any legal reason why she couldn't have done that? Would Henry have gotten angry over it? I don't really know how things worked then! Perhaps she was happy having 'sort of' step children, having your own child was very dangerous in those days afterall.

Anyway what i'm trying to say is I think that is was no-ones fault really, a sad fact about alot of things that happened in Henrys life, everyone just trying to do what is right and getting it SO wrong! lol!

August 17, 2014
5:51 pm
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Hannele
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Belle said But as queen back then you didn’t raise your children, so she probably knew that was going to happen before she had Elizabeth, regardless it’s still sad.

I don’t think it was sad, because with Henry’s daughters she had the joys of being a mother without the burdens, chief of which was a death in giving birth, which happened to Jane Seymour at the 29 and Katherine Parr (in the marriage with Thomas Seymour) at the age 36. The both died younger than Anne of Cleves who was 42. Thus, she lived longer than any of Henry’s wives except Katherine of Aragon.

August 17, 2014
11:20 pm
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Anyanka
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IIRC,, the annulment allowed both parties to re-mrry if they wished, so there was no reason why Anne couldn’t marry a suitable man , in theory. Whether Henry would have allowed that is another matter though.

I think Henry would have allowed her to marry a man he deemed suitable who Henry thought wouldn’t try to use her to gain any power in the kingdom before or after his death. I doubt he would have allowed her to marry Thomas Seynmour for exmple.

It's always bunnies.

August 22, 2014
10:53 pm
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Boleyn
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Am I right in thinking that when Thomas first approached the council (In Edward’s reign) with the proposal of wanting to marry Elizabeth, Edward or rather his council said “No way, but you could marry Anne of Cleves instead.” Thomas then refused that idea and married K.P. instead perhaps hoping that he could gain control of the young king through her instead…
I think we tend to underestimate Anne somewhat, she was far more astute than we give her credit for. She knew that if she re married she would loose some if not all of the benefits that she had got from agreeing to the divorce etc..She knew that if she did decide to marry again it wouldn’t be to a man of her choosing rather it would be to a man of Henry’s choosing. He couldn’t nor wouldn’t have someone who was a rival to him, and another consideration here is children, she wasn’t that old, and she could have quite easily had children with the man Henry chose for her, which would all but rubber stamp the impotancy claim/slur on Henry.. Half the reason for the divorce was the fact he didn’t find her sexually attractive. If another man was a happy enough bunny with his wife (Anne) it stands to reason that Henry’s slur I.E “she stinks and I can’t get it up” is a complete lie.
Whether or not she likes the spinster lifestyle I don’t know but I don’t think she had much of a choice either way.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 23, 2014
4:21 am
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Anyanka
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offhand since I will keep tidying up..

I believe Thomas suggested to the council that he marry either Mary or Elizbeth at great personal sacrifice and was rebuffed by his brother Hertford as saying both of them were unworthy to marry such elevated ladies.

TS then went to Edward “asking” for advice about TS’s mariage. Edward first offered Mary “to change her religion” and then Anne and finally agreed TS should try for KP. I caa’t emember edward offering Elizabeth though..

It's always bunnies.

August 23, 2014
10:12 am
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Boleyn
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I think T.S wanted to marry Elizabeth more or less from the time Henry had died. He was after power and because his brother carefully managed to deny T.S any regal (loosely worded) power, he sought other ways of doing it. Elizabeth was his first choice of doing that because she was close to the young King, and perhaps hoped he could influence or cajole Elizabeth into getting what he wanted from the young King via her.
The close “relationship” that T.S and Elizabeth had was a strange one. In Elizabeth’s case I think she was facinated by him and possibly even sexually attracted to him a little, but I also feel she could see right through him. She may have even used her “relationship” with him as a marker point for all of her future dealings with men.
If he abused her sexually during the time she was in K.P household, is still very much open to debate, but I believe that he tried to do something to her, but either Kat Ashley or K.P herself caught him, and felt it was better all round by and large to send Elizabeth away to protect her from him.
Whatever happened was a wake up call for Elizabeth and she never again allowed herself to be put into such a situation again..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 23, 2014
6:19 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

Am I right in thinking that when Thomas first approached the council (In Edward’s reign) with the proposal of wanting to marry Elizabeth, Edward or rather his council said “No way, but you could marry Anne of Cleves instead.” Thomas then refused that idea and married K.P. instead perhaps hoping that he could gain control of the young king through her instead…
I think we tend to underestimate Anne somewhat, she was far more astute than we give her credit for. She knew that if she re married she would loose some if not all of the benefits that she had got from agreeing to the divorce etc..She knew that if she did decide to marry again it wouldn’t be to a man of her choosing rather it would be to a man of Henry’s choosing. He couldn’t nor wouldn’t have someone who was a rival to him, and another consideration here is children, she wasn’t that old, and she could have quite easily had children with the man Henry chose for her, which would all but rubber stamp the impotancy claim/slur on Henry.. Half the reason for the divorce was the fact he didn’t find her sexually attractive. If another man was a happy enough bunny with his wife (Anne) it stands to reason that Henry’s slur I.E “she stinks and I can’t get it up” is a complete lie.
Whether or not she likes the spinster lifestyle I don’t know but I don’t think she had much of a choice either way.

I can’t find if Thomas’ proposals got to the council at all. Thomas first approached Edward VI asking him who he should marry. Edward said first AOC then Mary. The French Ambassador wrote that he asked Edward Somerset for either/or Anne or Mary. The Imperial Ambassador said he asked for Elizabeth’s hand. Either way, he didn’t get approval from his brother to marry any of them. So, when KP and Thomas did get married, they did it secretly without asking permission.
Even though Anne could have married, getting Henry to agree to a marriage for her would not be next to impossible.

August 23, 2014
8:02 pm
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Boleyn
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Another off the latch idea coming here. Is it entirely possible that, T.S had hoped to force the council to agree to his of marriage plans to Elizabeth, which I think he did have at some point, or was to be believed he had, by raping Elizabeth? I’m not too sure but I think if a woman or should I say a maid (virgin) was raped it was considered, her fault and the only way she could redeem herself in the eyes of modesty etc was to marry the man who had raped her.
T.S was power hungry, and would have done anything he could to get his nose into the power politics of court. I agree he asked Edward if he should marry but I think T.S was hoping that Edward would make the suggestion of him T.S marrying Elizabeth. Again I rather think that Edward wasn’t as green as he was cabbage looking (A local saying from my neck of the woods which means not stupid) as fond as he was of his Uncle Tom he could see through the bonne homme surface to a man who was out entirely for himself, a strutting peacock with big ideas of granduer.
So the suggestion that he marry A.O.C in some ways was a good one. Edward felt that it wasn’t his place to pay the pension that his father had paid her, so why shouldn’t she marry Thomas instead, that way she would get an income as Tom’s wife, and as a country gentleman he would have power of a sorts over the tenants of the lands he would hold.
His marriage to K.P (although Edward secretly agreed to it) was I feel a second best marriage to Tom at least. K.P may have loved him before her marriage to Henry and it’s possible that he (T.S) loved her at that time too, but only in the sence that she was a very rich widow. Once she married Henry all her lands etc, would be Henry’s so financially after Henry’s death she wasn’t as rich as she was before her marriage. Henry left her comfortably off, but I do feel that in time Edward would have perhaps started to feel the same way about paying her pension as he had A.O.C.. I.e she had given the King no heirs so what exactly was she too him. (It’s even doubtful in my opinion that Henry and K.P even had the old jingle bells bit in the bedroom, I rather think the old git was a little past it, and wasn’t interested in playing tiddly winks. I think he viewed K.P more as a compannion rather than a wife.) Yeah she was his stepmother, but daddykins was dead, that position wasn’t there anymore.
I know Ned Seymour wasn’t happy about T.S marriage to K.P, but then he and his brother had a very Kane and Abel relationship with each other anyway, so I think that whoever T.S married would never sit well with him. But I do think that after Ned had, had time to think about it, he realised that K.P was a good choice for him.
He (T.S) was already an admiral but other than a few manors, and the title of Baron Sudley, he gained little else from his marriage to K.P.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 25, 2014
6:30 pm
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Sharon
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Well Elizabeth can thank her lucky stars that didn’t happen! I don’t know if that rape thing would have worked with Elizabeth. I doubt it.
Thomas was definitely after riches and power. I don’t know if he was stupid enough to try something like that with her. For the life of me, I can’t figure out why he went after her as he did when he was married to Katherine. What could he possibly hope to gain by compromising her? He certainly wouldn’t have been able to marry her. And even though she was in the succession, it didn’t mean that she would one day be queen. Not at this point anyway. Edward was young and strong. He could have outlived Elizabeth. There was no way of knowing what would happen.

August 25, 2014
10:40 pm
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As Elizabeth is reputed to have said: Thomas had much wit but little judgement. I think he acted according to his greed and didn’t stop to think. He was very ambitious but wasn’t able to reach the pinnacle of courtly success.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 26, 2014
5:21 pm
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Boleyn
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I have to agree with Lady Princess. T.S’s motives for doing what he did were very bizarre. I also agree with Sharon about his alledged attempted rape of Elizabeth.
He was certainly power mad, but he had neither the balls or the brains to actually be able to do what it took to get the power, he wanted a quick fix, fast track solution to it. He had perhaps hoped that his marriage to K.P would have brought him into closer contact with Edward, but when that didn’t happen maybe making a whore out of a Elizabeth would, as Edward and Elizabeth were I believe quite close to one another. As Sharon says Elizabeth at that time had little chance of actually becomming queen in her own right, and that Edward was strong and healthy there was all likely hood that Edward would in time marry and produce an heirs and a few spares of his own anyway.
Ned had made sure that Thomas hadn’t got any real power over the affairs of state or Edward either. To do so I think would be a disaster all round. Could you imagine what would have happened to England if Thomas had been granted any real power?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 27, 2014
5:04 pm
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LadyPrincess
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He also had Jane Grey as his ward. I think Thomas may have wanted to marry her too. De Lisle (in her book about Jane) more or less says that he was desperate to keep Jane as his ward.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 27, 2014
6:26 pm
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Anyanka
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LadyPrincess said

He also had Jane Grey as his ward. I think Thomas may have wanted to marry her too. De Lisle (in her book about Jane) more or less says that he was desperate to keep Jane as his ward.

The plan was to marry Jane to Edward having bought her wardship from Henry Grey. Indeed he was so desperate to keep control of Jane’s future, he not only planned to bring his mother to Chelsea to look after her but also paid out an extra sum of money to Grey.

Edward and his council had plans for marrrying a royal bride like Elizabeth of France or Mary of Scotland

It's always bunnies.

August 27, 2014
7:02 pm
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LadyPrincess
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Yes. But perhaps at some point he may have considered marrying her too if she didn’t marry Edward?

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

August 27, 2014
8:27 pm
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Anyanka
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Perhps…but she was still very young at the time..10/11 yo and didn’t have a huge dowry apart from hersemi-royal blood and distant hope of inheriting the throne. She was at best 5th in the line of succession.

Thomas still had his sights on Elizabeth, her claim to the throne was stronger but more importantly she had lands and money which equalled influence. TS had tried to get Elizabeth to change some of her land to land nearer his, persumably to build up a faction of connected land-owners to act as his army when he decided to go up against his brother.

It's always bunnies.

August 28, 2014
5:41 pm
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Boleyn
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LadyPrincess said

He also had Jane Grey as his ward. I think Thomas may have wanted to marry her too. De Lisle (in her book about Jane) more or less says that he was desperate to keep Jane as his ward.

I think his idea about keep Jane as his ward was he had plans to marry her to Edward and marry Elizabeth himself. Thomas’s downfall left the way open for Dudley to put his plan into action, and I think that Dudley had always had that idea from the time that Edward took the throne. Dudley took one thing forgranted when he married his son to Guildford, nd tried to put him and Jane on the throne after Edward’s death, the people’s staunch belief in Henry’s royal authority and act of succession decree of 1544. In short when Dudley diddled with that act there was outrage at his cheek (loosely worded) to dare and oppose the royal authority was of epic proportion, and they showed it big time… It’s funny when you think about it although the people were perhaps glad to see the back of a wife murdering fat stinky useless sad sack of crap, they still respected and followed the wishes and his law of 1544. Perhaps the stinking old git does has some redeeming features after all… (Yeah I’m seeing the shrink tommorrow)

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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