Anne of Cleves - Appearance | Page 2 | The Six Wives | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Anne of Cleves - Appearance
July 14, 2013
12:18 am
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Argh I’m still waiting for my Cromwell biography. There was one thing I enjoyed about The Last Days of Anne Boleyn, watching Starkey and Weir vs. Walker and Lipscomb on “Cromwell’s coup”.

Hutchinson was discussing one of the letter’s Katherine Parr sent Henry when she was left Regent and the Scots invaded and were defeated, where she finished telling him “the children are well”. I think she was an outstanding woman, and honestly Henry’s perfect wife. Defeat my enemies and then tuck the children into bed. What more could a man want?

Anne would have had no idea at all what Henry looked like. She was only a woman after all, her opinion on his looks was irrelevant. That Henry expected her to be like KOA and clap her hands with delight at his game just shows how far his delusions about himself had gone.

July 14, 2013
12:31 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Olga said

Argh I’m still waiting for my Cromwell biography. There was one thing I enjoyed about The Last Days of Anne Boleyn, watching Starkey and Weir vs. Walker and Lipscomb on “Cromwell’s coup”.

Hutchinson was discussing one of the letter’s Katherine Parr sent Henry when she was left Regent and the Scots invaded and were defeated, where she finished telling him “the children are well”. I think she was an outstanding woman, and honestly Henry’s perfect wife. Defeat my enemies and then tuck the children into bed. What more could a man want?

Anne would have had no idea at all what Henry looked like. She was only a woman after all, her opinion on his looks was irrelevant. That Henry expected her to be like KOA and clap her hands with delight at his game just shows how far his delusions about himself had gone.

Where did you find the Schofield bio? I hope you didn’t have to pay an arm and a leg,lol.

That discussion on “Cromwell’s coup” was fascinating. It was great to see what Greg Walker looked like – his article on Anne Boleyn’s fall was insightful and credible. I’ve always loved Starkey and Suzannah Lipscomb is wonderful – so intelligent and gorgeous at the same time, lol.

Kat Parr was amazing. A good and decent woman and also passionate.

AOC must have had the biggest shock of her life when she first set eyes on HenrySurprised

July 14, 2013
1:11 am
Avatar
Olga
Australia
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 766
Member Since:
October 28, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Really we should congratulate the poor girl for not passing out. I always though poor old Kat Howard must have had a stomach of steel.

The good thing about Suzannah is that my partner never complains when she is on a documentary Laugh

I emailed the History Press Mariette, they said the reprint should be ready soon so I’ve just left my order as is, if I’m lucky I will get it in three or four weeks.

July 14, 2013
1:29 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said
Mariette my theory to why Kitty Howard was killed all revoves around Henry’s over inflated (well all of him was over inflated) ego.
It all starts with a remark that Anne B may or may not said (I don’t think Anne said it, Cromwell invented it to blacken Anne.)
Right the chance remark being that Anne said “Henry is no good in bed, and can’t satify a woman.” If we say for the sake of arguement here that she did say it, this is why poor Kitty Howard had to die.
Thin about it. C.O.A was dead, so she couldn’t say anything to defend Henry’s bedroom frolics, Anne was dead, Jane Seymour was dead so couldn’t say otherwise. A.O.C maintained that the marriage was never consummated so wouldnt have known if he was any good or not.
Kitty Howard and Henry had loud and noisy sex so she could certainly say “Yeah do you know something my cousin Anne was right Henry is crap in bed” He couldn’t afford to take the risk that she wouldn’t say anything about his prowess or lack there of.
Henry’s ego took a battering when Anne B was murdered, and to be honest I don’t think he really ever recovered from that.
Poor Kitty Howard was doomed from the start once her indiscretions came to light, he couldn’t live with the fact that Kitty may have all along been comparing Dereham’s lovemaking skills to Henry’s lovemaking skills. The only way of guarenteeing that nothing was said was by killing her.
K.P certainly wouldn’t have said anything about Henry’s sausage or his lovemaking skills whilst he was alive (assuming they even had sex), and once Henry was dead it wouldn’t matter what K.P said.

Anne wrote the comments about Henry’s potency problems in a letter to her sister-in-law, Jane Rochford. Cromwell didn’t make it up. Chapuys knew about it too.
I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed. His romps with Katherine Howard were long before she married the king and Dereham believed that they were to marry. It seems it was malice on Henry’s part to have had him hanged, drawn and quartered.
Certainly no-one survived who could tell any tales about Henry’s love-making skills or the lack thereof.

July 14, 2013
1:39 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Olga said

Really we should congratulate the poor girl for not passing out. I always though poor old Kat Howard must have had a stomach of steel.

The good thing about Suzannah is that my partner never complains when she is on a documentary Laugh

I emailed the History Press Mariette, they said the reprint should be ready soon so I’ve just left my order as is, if I’m lucky I will get it in three or four weeks.

KH was so tiny, it’s a miracle she wasn’t crushedSurprised

Your partner has good tasteLaugh

That’s good news about the Schofield bio….

July 14, 2013
1:47 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said
Mariette my theory to why Kitty Howard was killed all revoves around Henry’s over inflated (well all of him was over inflated) ego.
It all starts with a remark that Anne B may or may not said (I don’t think Anne said it, Cromwell invented it to blacken Anne.)
Right the chance remark being that Anne said “Henry is no good in bed, and can’t satify a woman.” If we say for the sake of arguement here that she did say it, this is why poor Kitty Howard had to die.
Thin about it. C.O.A was dead, so she couldn’t say anything to defend Henry’s bedroom frolics, Anne was dead, Jane Seymour was dead so couldn’t say otherwise. A.O.C maintained that the marriage was never consummated so wouldnt have known if he was any good or not.
Kitty Howard and Henry had loud and noisy sex so she could certainly say “Yeah do you know something my cousin Anne was right Henry is crap in bed” He couldn’t afford to take the risk that she wouldn’t say anything about his prowess or lack there of.
Henry’s ego took a battering when Anne B was murdered, and to be honest I don’t think he really ever recovered from that.
Poor Kitty Howard was doomed from the start once her indiscretions came to light, he couldn’t live with the fact that Kitty may have all along been comparing Dereham’s lovemaking skills to Henry’s lovemaking skills. The only way of guarenteeing that nothing was said was by killing her.
K.P certainly wouldn’t have said anything about Henry’s sausage or his lovemaking skills whilst he was alive (assuming they even had sex), and once Henry was dead it wouldn’t matter what K.P said.

Anne wrote the comments about Henry’s potency problems in a letter to her sister-in-law, Jane Rochford. Cromwell didn’t make it up. Chapuys reported this in one of his letters.

I’ve always thought it unjust that Dereham was executed. His romps with Katherine Howard were long before she married the king and Dereham believed that they were to marry. It was pure malice on Henry’s part to have had him hanged, drawn and quartered.

You’re right Boleyn, no-one survived who could tell any tales about Henry’s love-making skills or the lack thereof.

July 14, 2013
10:59 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mariette said

Boleyn said
Mariette my theory to why Kitty Howard was killed all revoves around Henry’s over inflated (well all of him was over inflated) ego.
It all starts with a remark that Anne B may or may not said (I don’t think Anne said it, Cromwell invented it to blacken Anne.)
Right the chance remark being that Anne said “Henry is no good in bed, and can’t satify a woman.” If we say for the sake of arguement here that she did say it, this is why poor Kitty Howard had to die.
Thin about it. C.O.A was dead, so she couldn’t say anything to defend Henry’s bedroom frolics, Anne was dead, Jane Seymour was dead so couldn’t say otherwise. A.O.C maintained that the marriage was never consummated so wouldnt have known if he was any good or not.
Kitty Howard and Henry had loud and noisy sex so she could certainly say “Yeah do you know something my cousin Anne was right Henry is crap in bed” He couldn’t afford to take the risk that she wouldn’t say anything about his prowess or lack there of.
Henry’s ego took a battering when Anne B was murdered, and to be honest I don’t think he really ever recovered from that.
Poor Kitty Howard was doomed from the start once her indiscretions came to light, he couldn’t live with the fact that Kitty may have all along been comparing Dereham’s lovemaking skills to Henry’s lovemaking skills. The only way of guarenteeing that nothing was said was by killing her.
K.P certainly wouldn’t have said anything about Henry’s sausage or his lovemaking skills whilst he was alive (assuming they even had sex), and once Henry was dead it wouldn’t matter what K.P said.

Anne wrote the comments about Henry’s potency problems in a letter to her sister-in-law, Jane Rochford. Cromwell didn’t make it up. Chapuys knew about it too.
I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed. His romps with Katherine Howard were long before she married the king and Dereham believed that they were to marry. It seems it was malice on Henry’s part to have had him hanged, drawn and quartered.
Certainly no-one survived who could tell any tales about Henry’s love-making skills or the lack thereof.

One has to ask as well why was Mannox let go? I don’t think K.H and he actually had sex, in the fullest sence of the word but I believe that they may have she may have had anal intercourse with him. Certainly Mannox confessed to Jane Bulmer, that he had carnal intentions towards K.H, and when Jane told her what he had said she was justifiedly angry about it. But whatever happened between K.H and Mannox, Mannox had still meddled with K.H and therefore was as guilty as Dereham.
Whatever Anne said in her letter I believe Cromwell blew it all out of purportion, and in someways kind of supports my theory, about why K.H had to die. If Chapuys knew about the contents of a private letter between Anne and Jane Rochford, who else knew? Did K.H herself hear the rumours albeit via another source? (I wouldn’t put it past her Uncle Norfolk the odious little runt, to have gossiped about the contents of this letter with the Duchess).

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 14, 2013
6:27 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mariette said

Anne wrote the comments about Henry’s potency problems in a letter to her sister-in-law, Jane Rochford. Cromwell didn’t make it up. Chapuys knew about it too.
I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed. His romps with Katherine Howard were long before she married the king and Dereham believed that they were to marry. It seems it was malice on Henry’s part to have had him hanged, drawn and quartered.
Certainly no-one survived who could tell any tales about Henry’s love-making skills or the lack thereof.

You know I never thought that the evidence shown to George at trial which he read aloud was a letter actually written by Anne to Jane. I thought Jane had testified to Cromwell and what he handed George at the trial was a written copy of that testimony. It surprises the heck out of me that Anne would put something like that in writing.

July 14, 2013
11:56 pm
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said

You know I never thought that the evidence shown to George at trial which he read aloud was a letter actually written by Anne to Jane. I thought Jane had testified to Cromwell and what he handed George at the trial was a written copy of that testimony.

I don’t think George was shown any letter, but was handed a scrap of paper where the allegation that he had questioned the paternity of Elizabeth (an ill-advised joke) knowing that Anne had told his wife that Henry was sexually inadequate/intermittently impotent. I doubt that George was ever told who had made allegations against him..

It surprises the heck out of me that Anne would put something like that in writing.

She probably didn’t. I’ve checked some of my secondary sources – they all differ and all contain innaccuracies. e.g. In Hutchison’s bio of Cromwell, Jane Rochford is in court and hands Cromwell the scrap of paper. Surprised Neither Starkey nor Ives mention this particular ‘letter’ just that the source was Lady Rochford. I’m more inclined to put my faith in Starkey and Ives than any other historians.

Now I just have to find the source/s that claimed Anne wrote this in a letter…if it takes me a week!Confused

July 15, 2013
1:07 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

One has to ask as well why was Mannox let go? I don’t think K.H and he actually had sex, in the fullest sence of the word but I believe that they may have she may have had anal intercourse with him. Certainly Mannox confessed to Jane Bulmer, that he had carnal intentions towards K.H, and when Jane told her what he had said she was justifiedly angry about it. But whatever happened between K.H and Mannox, Mannox had still meddled with K.H and therefore was as guilty as Dereham.

Exactly..there was no detailed knowledge of how far Mannox had been initmate with KH. BY the time KH had married Henry, Mannox had himself married and showed little or no intereast in joining the royal household.

Dereham joining KH’s household was seen in retrospect as being akin to them becoming lovers again. Whether KH would have turned to Dereham or “tried Culpepper” is a matter of conjuncture.

It's always bunnies.

July 16, 2013
11:37 am
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I’ve just discovered something about Mannox, if it is true or not I can’t say for certain, Mannox was indeed married at the time of K.H’s downfall his wife being none other than K.H’s former stepmother called Margaret Munday.

I’m intriqued about Anne’s attitude towards marriage.She still considered herself as Henry’s wife, but didn’t she give him her wedding ring and tell him to crush it as it was a thing of no value? Surely she would have kept it if she felt that she was still Henry’s wife? Did she see K.H and K.P as Henry’s wives. We know of her opinion concerning K.P she felt that K.P was lower class, or something like that. But how did she feel about K.H?
I rather think that Anne was glad that she didn’t have to put up with fat arse, doing his nightly horizontal jogging in bed every night, on her whilst she is reading a book behind his head or staring up at the the canopy counting the stitches in her initials.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 16, 2013
1:58 pm
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

I’ve just discovered something about Mannox, if it is true or not I can’t say for certain, Mannox was indeed married at the time of K.H’s downfall his wife being none other than K.H’s former stepmother called Margaret Munday.

here’s a link to the will of Margaret Munday’s step-mother which has the details of where Henry Mannox’s will is. http://www.oxford-shakespeare……7_f_72.pdf

eta..Mannox’s will doesn’t appear to be on-line..

It's always bunnies.

July 16, 2013
8:22 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you for that Anyanka, you never cease to amaze me, you always have a little gem of surprize up your sleeve. It’s certainly very intriquing problem? Is the Henry Mannox mentioned the self same Mannox that tinkered with K.H.? Would K.H’s Stepmother want to marry a man who had meddled with K.H? It’s a good one to try a puzzle out. On the face of it I do feel that it is THE Henry Mannox, but when exactly did they marry? Certainly it would have been after 1539 as K.H’s father died that year, so it’s highly possible that they would have married late in 1540 or early 1541.
More to the point why did Mannox escape Dereham’s punishment? Is it just possible that the reason maybe was K.H was really too young to be considered a woman. It’s difficult to explain that, but I think what I mean is, that girls were considered mature and ready to marry and have children from the age of 12 and onwards, although a lot of girls were married at a much younger age until they reached the excepted age of sexual consent, they were still children, and therefore K.H would have not known what Mannox was really doing. We don’t reallly know K.H’s DOB, but i’m inclined to think it’s a round about 1522/3ish making it around 1534 that K.H was ripe for marriage, so anytime before then Mannox must have meddled with her. Purely an opinion of course.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 17, 2013
12:01 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

I’m intriqued about Anne’s attitude towards marriage.She still considered herself as Henry’s wife, but didn’t she give him her wedding ring and tell him to crush it as it was a thing of no value? Surely she would have kept it if she felt that she was still Henry’s wife?

Boleyn, I think, that Anne, sensing the potential danger she was in, was sending Henry a clear signal that she did not intend to contest the divorce or to make any trouble as KOA had. imo a very smart move.

July 17, 2013
1:21 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mariette said

Boleyn said

I’m intriqued about Anne’s attitude towards marriage.She still considered herself as Henry’s wife, but didn’t she give him her wedding ring and tell him to crush it as it was a thing of no value? Surely she would have kept it if she felt that she was still Henry’s wife?

Boleyn, I think, that Anne, sensing the potential danger she was in, was sending Henry a clear signal that she did not intend to contest the divorce or to make any trouble as KOA had. imo a very smart move.

The more I try to find out abour AoC..she comes across as having a lot of innate intelligence and the ability to stop back and look for the best solution for herself and her needs.

I’m sure she played with Henry by telling her ladies she never got her maritals in a very coy and pointed way. Sending the ring back was another subtle “Up Yours” to Henry.

She realised that the ring was a symbol and easily removed, the deeper vows were a lot harder to break.

It's always bunnies.

July 17, 2013
1:44 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Boleyn said

Thank you for that Anyanka, you never cease to amaze me, you always have a little gem of surprize up your sleeve. It’s certainly very intriquing problem? Is the Henry Mannox mentioned the self same Mannox that tinkered with K.H.? Would K.H’s Stepmother want to marry a man who had meddled with K.H? It’s a good one to try a puzzle out. On the face of it I do feel that it is THE Henry Mannox, but when exactly did they marry? Certainly it would have been after 1539 as K.H’s father died that year, so it’s highly possible that they would have married late in 1540 or early 1541.

I’m agreeing that it’s probably the same chap. I doubt if Margaret Munday knew the whole involvement of Mannox and KH. I know that the Howard family tried to bury the whole thing as a girls prank. Her aunt , the Countess of Bridgewater was worried about the effect late nights had on KH’s beauty..Her uncle Lord William was less concerned ” What mad wenches. Can you not be merry about yourselves but you must just fall out?”
Starkey p648.

More to the point why did Mannox escape Dereham’s punishment? Is it just possible that the reason maybe was K.H was really too young to be considered a woman. It’s difficult to explain that, but I think what I mean is, that girls were considered mature and ready to marry and have children from the age of 12 and onwards, although a lot of girls were married at a much younger age until they reached the excepted age of sexual consent, they were still children, and therefore K.H would have not known what Mannox was really doing. We don’t reallly know K.H’s DOB, but i’m inclined to think it’s a round about 1522/3ish making it around 1534 that K.H was ripe for marriage, so anytime before then Mannox must have meddled with her. Purely an opinion of course.

Mannox had a lot of points in hs favour.
1) he’d never actually had sex with KH..petting was about as far as they went.
2)he’d never promised to marry KH since he was of too low a birth for KH to find acceptable.
3) he was now married
4) he had never seeked to join KH’s household( this is another reason why I think that he was the husband of Margeret Munday and they were discreetly withdrawing from the Howards)
5)he told everything freely to Cramner et al..

On a seperate but related note i was surprised to learn that the marriagable age was raised to 16 from 12 for girls and 15 for boys in 1929 in Britain..
http://www.parliament.uk/about…..marriage-/

In 1929, in response to a campaign by the National Union of Societies for Equal Citizenship, Parliament raised the age limit to 16 for both sexes in the Ages of Marriage Act. This is still the minimum age.

Somehow I thought we had evolved beyond that by then..

It's always bunnies.

September 8, 2013
3:42 am
Avatar
Anyanka
La Belle Province
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2337
Member Since:
November 18, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Mariette said

I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed.

He was reported by Davenport as saying “I’m sure I might marry her” should the king die.( Jane Boleyn, the true story of the infamous Lady Rochford, p 274)

That simple statement was enough to condemn him in the same way that Anne’s similar words to Norris were.

Their possible pre-contract and consummation was rendered irrevalvant by Dereham’s treasonable statement.

It's always bunnies.

September 8, 2013
10:14 am
Avatar
Mariette
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 91
Member Since:
November 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Anyanka said

Mariette said

I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed.

He was reported by Davenport as saying “I’m sure I might marry her” should the king die.( Jane Boleyn, the true story of the infamous Lady Rochford, p 274)

That simple statement was enough to condemn him in the same way that Anne’s similar words to Norris were.

Their possible pre-contract and consummation was rendered irrevalvant by Dereham’s treasonable statement.

Thanks Anyanka. That accusation would certainly be enough. I wonder if Dereham really said it or if Davenport was hoping to save his own neck…

September 16, 2013
5:34 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2115
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Personal opinion here, but I think Dereham probably did say he was going to marry Katherine when the king died. He doesn’t strike me as being a very bright bulb. He underestimated Henry as so many others did. I doubt very much that he thought his words would get back to Henry. Katherine and him were a great pair.

September 16, 2013
8:05 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sharon said

Personal opinion here, but I think Dereham probably did say he was going to marry Katherine when the king died. He doesn’t strike me as being a very bright bulb. He underestimated Henry as so many others did. I doubt very much that he thought his words would get back to Henry. Katherine and him were a great pair.

I agree Sharon, why go to all the trouble of getting a letter from the Duchess (How or why he did this is open to debate, but i’m inclined to think that he may have blackmailed the Duchess somehow, perhaps he threatened to her stepson or others about the way she ran her household) to get a place in K.H’s household, just for the sheer hell of it. I strongly believe that he felt he could simply pick up where he left off with her and no one would be none the wiser.
He did underestimate Henry that’s true, but he also underestimated K.H. When Dereham went off on his travels, he believed she would wait for him. unfortunatly for him like most giggy teenagers, she simply moved on to her next love affair, Henry. I don’t think she ever loved Henry in the way he wanted her to, but saw him more as a sugar daddy if that makes sence. Dereham must have felt very recentful towards Henry, but instead of keeping his mouth shut he opened it in the wrong place and as a result not only did it land him in the bullplop landed the whole Howard clan in it too right up to their necks.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427586

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1711

Posts: 23075

Newest Members:

Goldyy, klftault, Opilacetault, 415berna, modwynVom, Thelmaaledo

Administrators: Claire: 959