Argh I’m still waiting for my Cromwell biography. There was one thing I enjoyed about The Last Days of Anne Boleyn, watching Starkey and Weir vs. Walker and Lipscomb on “Cromwell’s coup”.

Hutchinson was discussing one of the letter’s Katherine Parr sent Henry when she was left Regent and the Scots invaded and were defeated, where she finished telling him “the children are well”. I think she was an outstanding woman, and honestly Henry’s perfect wife. Defeat my enemies and then tuck the children into bed. What more could a man want?

Anne would have had no idea at all what Henry looked like. She was only a woman after all, her opinion on his looks was irrelevant. That Henry expected her to be like KOA and clap her hands with delight at his game just shows how far his delusions about himself had gone.

Really we should congratulate the poor girl for not passing out. I always though poor old Kat Howard must have had a stomach of steel.

The good thing about Suzannah is that my partner never complains when she is on a documentary

I emailed the History Press Mariette, they said the reprint should be ready soon so I’ve just left my order as is, if I’m lucky I will get it in three or four weeks.

Mariette said

Boleyn said
Mariette my theory to why Kitty Howard was killed all revoves around Henry’s over inflated (well all of him was over inflated) ego.
It all starts with a remark that Anne B may or may not said (I don’t think Anne said it, Cromwell invented it to blacken Anne.)
Right the chance remark being that Anne said “Henry is no good in bed, and can’t satify a woman.” If we say for the sake of arguement here that she did say it, this is why poor Kitty Howard had to die.
Thin about it. C.O.A was dead, so she couldn’t say anything to defend Henry’s bedroom frolics, Anne was dead, Jane Seymour was dead so couldn’t say otherwise. A.O.C maintained that the marriage was never consummated so wouldnt have known if he was any good or not.
Kitty Howard and Henry had loud and noisy sex so she could certainly say “Yeah do you know something my cousin Anne was right Henry is crap in bed” He couldn’t afford to take the risk that she wouldn’t say anything about his prowess or lack there of.
Henry’s ego took a battering when Anne B was murdered, and to be honest I don’t think he really ever recovered from that.
Poor Kitty Howard was doomed from the start once her indiscretions came to light, he couldn’t live with the fact that Kitty may have all along been comparing Dereham’s lovemaking skills to Henry’s lovemaking skills. The only way of guarenteeing that nothing was said was by killing her.
K.P certainly wouldn’t have said anything about Henry’s sausage or his lovemaking skills whilst he was alive (assuming they even had sex), and once Henry was dead it wouldn’t matter what K.P said.

Anne wrote the comments about Henry’s potency problems in a letter to her sister-in-law, Jane Rochford. Cromwell didn’t make it up. Chapuys knew about it too.
I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed. His romps with Katherine Howard were long before she married the king and Dereham believed that they were to marry. It seems it was malice on Henry’s part to have had him hanged, drawn and quartered.
Certainly no-one survived who could tell any tales about Henry’s love-making skills or the lack thereof.

One has to ask as well why was Mannox let go? I don’t think K.H and he actually had sex, in the fullest sence of the word but I believe that they may have she may have had anal intercourse with him. Certainly Mannox confessed to Jane Bulmer, that he had carnal intentions towards K.H, and when Jane told her what he had said she was justifiedly angry about it. But whatever happened between K.H and Mannox, Mannox had still meddled with K.H and therefore was as guilty as Dereham.
Whatever Anne said in her letter I believe Cromwell blew it all out of purportion, and in someways kind of supports my theory, about why K.H had to die. If Chapuys knew about the contents of a private letter between Anne and Jane Rochford, who else knew? Did K.H herself hear the rumours albeit via another source? (I wouldn’t put it past her Uncle Norfolk the odious little runt, to have gossiped about the contents of this letter with the Duchess).

I’ve just discovered something about Mannox, if it is true or not I can’t say for certain, Mannox was indeed married at the time of K.H’s downfall his wife being none other than K.H’s former stepmother called Margaret Munday.

I’m intriqued about Anne’s attitude towards marriage.She still considered herself as Henry’s wife, but didn’t she give him her wedding ring and tell him to crush it as it was a thing of no value? Surely she would have kept it if she felt that she was still Henry’s wife? Did she see K.H and K.P as Henry’s wives. We know of her opinion concerning K.P she felt that K.P was lower class, or something like that. But how did she feel about K.H?
I rather think that Anne was glad that she didn’t have to put up with fat arse, doing his nightly horizontal jogging in bed every night, on her whilst she is reading a book behind his head or staring up at the the canopy counting the stitches in her initials.

Thank you for that Anyanka, you never cease to amaze me, you always have a little gem of surprize up your sleeve. It’s certainly very intriquing problem? Is the Henry Mannox mentioned the self same Mannox that tinkered with K.H.? Would K.H’s Stepmother want to marry a man who had meddled with K.H? It’s a good one to try a puzzle out. On the face of it I do feel that it is THE Henry Mannox, but when exactly did they marry? Certainly it would have been after 1539 as K.H’s father died that year, so it’s highly possible that they would have married late in 1540 or early 1541.
More to the point why did Mannox escape Dereham’s punishment? Is it just possible that the reason maybe was K.H was really too young to be considered a woman. It’s difficult to explain that, but I think what I mean is, that girls were considered mature and ready to marry and have children from the age of 12 and onwards, although a lot of girls were married at a much younger age until they reached the excepted age of sexual consent, they were still children, and therefore K.H would have not known what Mannox was really doing. We don’t reallly know K.H’s DOB, but i’m inclined to think it’s a round about 1522/3ish making it around 1534 that K.H was ripe for marriage, so anytime before then Mannox must have meddled with her. Purely an opinion of course.

Mariette said

Boleyn said

I’m intriqued about Anne’s attitude towards marriage.She still considered herself as Henry’s wife, but didn’t she give him her wedding ring and tell him to crush it as it was a thing of no value? Surely she would have kept it if she felt that she was still Henry’s wife?

Boleyn, I think, that Anne, sensing the potential danger she was in, was sending Henry a clear signal that she did not intend to contest the divorce or to make any trouble as KOA had. imo a very smart move.

The more I try to find out abour AoC..she comes across as having a lot of innate intelligence and the ability to stop back and look for the best solution for herself and her needs.

I’m sure she played with Henry by telling her ladies she never got her maritals in a very coy and pointed way. Sending the ring back was another subtle “Up Yours” to Henry.

She realised that the ring was a symbol and easily removed, the deeper vows were a lot harder to break.

Mariette said

I’ve always wondered why Dereham was executed.

He was reported by Davenport as saying “I’m sure I might marry her” should the king die.( Jane Boleyn, the true story of the infamous Lady Rochford, p 274)

That simple statement was enough to condemn him in the same way that Anne’s similar words to Norris were.

Their possible pre-contract and consummation was rendered irrevalvant by Dereham’s treasonable statement.

Personal opinion here, but I think Dereham probably did say he was going to marry Katherine when the king died. He doesn’t strike me as being a very bright bulb. He underestimated Henry as so many others did. I doubt very much that he thought his words would get back to Henry. Katherine and him were a great pair.