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Anne of Cleves - Appearance
July 10, 2013
2:11 am
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Mariette
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When it comes to Anne of Cleves it can be difficult to sort fact from fiction. It appears to me that no-one called AOC ugly except Henry VIII. Lady Lisle praised her gentle disposition while she was in Calais. The chronicler Hall noted her long, fair hair. As far as I’m aware, nobody mentioned pockmarks on her face either. No criticism appears until after Henry throws a hissy fit after Anne fails to recognize him in disguise at their first meeting.

The French ambassador, Marillac to Francis I:

…She was clothed in the fashion of the country from which she came, and he received her very graciously and conducted her into his house at Greenwich to the chamber prepared for her.
She looks about 30 years of age, tall and thin, of medium beauty, and of very assured and resolute countenance. She brought 12 or 15 ladies of honour clothed like herself—a thing which looks strange to many…
Letters & Papers, vol. 15, 22, 5 January, 1540
http://www.british-history.ac……mpid=76157

The depositions given by Henry’s men concerning the divorce of Anne of Cleves are presented here: (Henry’s comments about Anne’s body to all and sundry are reprehensible)

John Strype, Ecclesiastical Memorials, vol. I part II pp. 452-463
http://archive.org/stream/appe…..rch/cleves

July 10, 2013
12:27 pm
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Boleyn
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I wouldn’t say A.O.C was beautiful, but she was pleasing in appearence, much the same could be said of all his wives.
True beauty comes from within anyway.
It’s interesting to know what Henry thought about A.O.C but I would really like to hear the other side of the coin so to speak. What did Anne truly feel about Henry? I know that she took fright (for want of a better word) at the monsterous lump of stinking lard that appeared to her at Rochester Castle, but surely once she had,had got over the initial shock she would have made a judgement about what she truly felt about him.
Did she like him? What was she told by Henry’s lackey’s on the boat over? was she even shown a picture of him?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 10, 2013
8:39 pm
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Mariette
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Boleyn said

I know that she took fright (for want of a better word) at the monsterous lump of stinking lard that appeared to her at Rochester Castle>

Surprisedlol, Boleyn, you do have a way with words!

Boleyn said

I wouldn’t say A.O.C was beautiful, but she was pleasing in appearence, much the same could be said of all his wives.
True beauty comes from within anyway.

I’ve always thought AOC appears to have had a pretty face in the miniature, http://www.luminarium.org/ency…..cleves.gif

though her clothing was not at all flattering in the full Holbein portrait…
http://imgc.allpostersimages.c…..cleves.jpg

Boleyn said

…once she had,had got over the initial shock she would have made a judgement about what she truly felt about him.
Did she like him? What was she told by Henry’s lackey’s on the boat over? was she even shown a picture of him?

If only we knew

July 10, 2013
9:36 pm
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Boleyn
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Mariette said

Boleyn said

I know that she took fright (for want of a better word) at the monsterous lump of stinking lard that appeared to her at Rochester Castle>

Surprisedlol, Boleyn, you do have a way with words!

Boleyn said

I wouldn’t say A.O.C was beautiful, but she was pleasing in appearence, much the same could be said of all his wives.
True beauty comes from within anyway.

I’ve always thought AOC appears to have had a pretty face in the miniature, http://www.luminarium.org/ency…..cleves.gif

though her clothing was not at all flattering in the full Holbein portrait…
http://imgc.allpostersimages.c…..cleves.jpg

Boleyn said

…once she had,had got over the initial shock she would have made a judgement about what she truly felt about him.
Did she like him? What was she told by Henry’s lackey’s on the boat over? was she even shown a picture of him?

If only we knew

Totally agree, I think A.O.C had a very kind looking face, and yes I agree her dress did nothing for her. However someone put a picture on one of the forum pages who they believed was A.O.C in English dress and i must admit there is a resemblance in the features of the sitter to A.O.C. I can’t remember the name of the forum page now, Sharon has a very good memory, as does Anyanka so they might remember better than me.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 10, 2013
11:04 pm
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Mariette
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Boleyn said

..someone put a picture on one of the forum pages who they believed was A.O.C in English dress and i must admit there is a resemblance in the features of the sitter to A.O.C. I can’t remember the name of the forum page now, Sharon has a very good memory, as does Anyanka so they might remember better than me.

I haven’t seen a portrait of AOC in English dress and hope someone can find it.

Have you seen these?

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/…..e581cf.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/…..4ea5_o.jpg

July 11, 2013
5:40 pm
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Boleyn
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I’ve found the forum page on the picture I mentioned the forum page is Anne of Cleves/Katherine Howard. At first glance you will think straight away that it is Katherine Howard as it is the picture that has generally been excepted as her.
Thank you for uploading the pictures I confess I haven’t seen these before, certainly it does give you another view of what Anne possibly looked like, although Holbien was known to be a little to fond of using poetic licence. The first picture to me seems very natural looking if that makes sence. I can see a very intelligent resolute lady in her face.
As for my humour I think it’s best to say that you need a sence of humour married to a Dinosaur. LOL.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 11, 2013
7:37 pm
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Sharon
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I think Anne could hold her own in the looks department. Marillac claimed she was of medium beauty…whatever that means. Many of Henry’s other contemporaries claimed she was quite lovely. However, what draws me to Anne isn’t so much her looks, but her personality. Everyone thought she acted in a queenly manner including Henry. She was quick to laugh. She responded to Henry “with most amiable aspect and womanly behavior.” The people took to her immediately. It was Henry’s opinion that mattered and he just did not like her, and his opinion never changed. IMO, had he given her a chance they would have been great together. Henry made a big mistake by rejecting Anne as he did.
Hall’s description of Anne at festivities and jousts a few days after the wedding took place, “Anne looking on dressed after the English fashion, with a French hood, which so set forth her beauty and good visage that every creature rejoiced to behold her.” Here was a woman who was eager to please the King. Henry never gave her a chance.
Henry was so eager to make Anne his, until he met her. He wasn’t use to mail order brides. He was different from other kings in that respect. He had always chosen his own brides after romancing them. KOA was the only bride who was from a different country, but they had known each other for years. Same with Anne and Jane. Although he may have thought he would fall in love with Anne at first sight, I don’t think he liked the idea of meeting a woman and marrying her before they could even understand each other. Henry was a romantic and in his mind he needed to “love” his women before he married them. Why didn’t he take the time after they were married to fall in love? Maybe because there was someone else who had caught his eye?
The black and white is beautiful! I had never seen that before.

July 11, 2013
10:32 pm
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Mariette
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I couldn’t agree with you more Sharon on your views about Henry and his romantic notions and that it was a mistake not to have given Anne a chance. I have the idea in my mind that at least, in part, Anne’s rejection was political. Henry no longer needed ( or wanted )the Cleves alliance and it had become a liability plus Katherine Howard had caught his eye. Thanks for posting the quote from Hall about Anne’s appearanceSmile

Boleyn, Holbein had enormous talent and to think without his sketches and portraits we would’nt have a clue what so many in henry’s court looked likeWink

I like this portrait too
'Lost' portrait of Anne of Cleves?Image Enlarger

Anne’s sister Sybilla was lovely too, wasn’t she?

http://rlv.zcache.com/portrait…..vr_512.jpg

Her sister Amelia??

http://www.flickriver.com/phot…..392345943/

July 12, 2013
9:10 am
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Boleyn
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I agree Sharon. Anne wasn’t what you would call beautiful but her appearence is very pleasing, her true beauty was from within. From what little I’ve read about her or should I say what little we know about her, she was intelligent, freindly and there was no hint of spite of vindictivness in her nature. She was happy with her lot. If only Lard arse had given his marriage a chance I’m sure they would have been quite happy, considering they were quite freindly with each other after the divorce, it adds to me at least that the marriage might have worked out well if Henry had given it go.
Of course we all know that Henry was allowing his doodle to rule his head over the whole affair the reason for that was quite simple, because lard arse only ever had enough blood to power one thing, and it wasn’t his brain.
Yes I agree Anne’s sisters were lovely, but I find Amelia a little bit harsh in appearence maybe it’s just the way the picture has been drawn, but her features seem to be more masculine in appearence, instead of the softer appearence than either Anne or Sybilla.
I wonder why Anne didn’t send for her sister after Lard Arse divorced her? I would have thought she would have wanted to have her sister with her for company, as I kind of get the impression that for the most part Anne and Amelia were ignored by their brother.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 12, 2013
11:10 am
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Mariette
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Boleyn said

Yes I agree Anne’s sisters were lovely, but I find Amelia a little bit harsh in appearence maybe it’s just the way the picture has been drawn, but her features seem to be more masculine in appearence, instead of the softer appearence than either Anne or Sybilla.
I wonder why Anne didn’t send for her sister after Lard Arse divorced her? I would have thought she would have wanted to have her sister with her for company, as I kind of get the impression that for the most part Anne and Amelia were ignored by their brother.

Boleyn, the identity of the drawing supposedly of Amelia is disputed. Some authorities claim that she was a high ranking woman at Henry’s court. They say her clothes are English, but they look very different from any English clothing that I’ve seen from that period. What do you think?

Amelia is a bit of a mystery. She never married, negotiations fell through. Anne and her brother William did write to each other. He sent her money but didn’t have enough political influence to help her.

July 12, 2013
4:39 pm
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Yes Mariette you could well be right, the style of dress is more in keeping with what was around at the time when K.P was Queen. Although Holbien was comissioned to paint both of the sisters, wasn’t he? In which case one has to ask just who was this portrait of? was it possible that it was another potential bride for Henry which is believed it was Amelia? Holbien surely didn’t just do one or 2 portraits when Henry was being railroaded into another marriage, surely Holbien would have been ordered to do a job lot of portraits. So it’s possible that this sitter is from one of the Europeon courts.
I agree Amelia is a bit of an enigma which is I don’t understand why Anne didn’t send for Amelia. It can’t have been a lot of fun for Amelia just shut up in her brother’s castle all but forgotten. From what I have read Anne’s life at her brother’s court was fairly mundane, she was taught reading and writing, but things like cards, dancing, singing or playing any instrument her brother felt were un-necessary, although she was an expert with a needle. Granted she was given a crash course in English court ettiquette, but not enough to please Henry.
Henry couldn’t afford to send Anne packing back to Germany, as the Cleves dukedom was being threatened by the Spanish Catholics I believe. If Henry sent Anne back, her brother could have teamed up with the Emperor and given England a bloody nose or worse still turfed Henry off the throne and placed Mary on it. On the other hand, by keeping Anne in England and treating with all due respect it sent a message to the Emperor to leave Cleves alone or else. At least that’s the way I see it.
By treating Anne as his adopted sister Henry (who was a craven coward) guarenteed that he had an army abroad to fight his battles. If England was threatened by some forgien invader Anne’s brother would come to bat for Henry.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 12, 2013
10:25 pm
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Mariette
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Boleyn said

I agree Amelia is a bit of an enigma which is I don’t understand why Anne didn’t send for Amelia. It can’t have been a lot of fun for Amelia just shut up in her brother’s castle all but forgotten. From what I have read Anne’s life at her brother’s court was fairly mundane, she was taught reading and writing, but things like cards, dancing, singing or playing any instrument her brother felt were un-necessary, although she was an expert with a needle. Granted she was given a crash course in English court ettiquette, but not enough to please Henry.

The German court must have been incredibly dull and oppressive for the women. Just imagine – no music or dancing and sewing most of the dayFrown
Amelia lived to the the age of 69 and never left her brother’s court.

Nothing would be enough to please Henry for very longWink

Henry couldn’t afford to send Anne packing back to Germany, as the Cleves dukedom was being threatened by the Spanish Catholics I believe. If Henry sent Anne back, her brother could have teamed up with the Emperor and given England a bloody nose or worse still turfed Henry off the throne and placed Mary on it. On the other hand, by keeping Anne in England and treating with all due respect it sent a message to the Emperor to leave Cleves alone or else. At least that’s the way I see it.

Charles V bested Anne’s brother in a dispute over territory and pressured him into marrying his niece, Maria of Austria in 1546. The marriage seems to have turned out well though, as they had a large brood of children.

If Anne had returned to Germany she may have had a very difficult time because of the disgrace of being rejected by Henry VIII, which would have made it difficult for her brother to marry her off to someone else. I suspect she knew she was better off staying in England.

July 13, 2013
1:35 am
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Olga
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Call me cynical, but I suspect part of the reason Henry refused when her brother tried to renegotiate the marriage after Kat Howard was executed was that Anne wasn’t wholly his subject. Whatever false titles he gave her. He only married two foreign princesses, and with the threats he faced after his struggle to annul his first marriage, I wouldn’t think Henry would want to marry a wife he couldn’t control easily. He may have had those regrets in the first few months in his marriage, but I’m just speculating. That’s also why I think he offered her such a generous settlement, he couldn’t really just get rid of her or frame her in any way.

July 13, 2013
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Olga said

Call me cynical, but I suspect part of the reason Henry refused when her brother tried to renegotiate the marriage after Kat Howard was executed was that Anne wasn’t wholly his subject. Whatever false titles he gave her. He only married two foreign princesses, and with the threats he faced after his struggle to annul his first marriage, I wouldn’t think Henry would want to marry a wife he couldn’t control easily. He may have had those regrets in the first few months in his marriage, but I’m just speculating. That’s also why I think he offered her such a generous settlement, he couldn’t really just get rid of her or frame her in any way.

Yes Olga I agree, he certainly couldn’t lop her head off, after she hadn’t done anything to warrant death. It wasn’t her fault that she wasn’t to Henry’s taste (although to be honest I don’t think any woman was to Henry’s taste for too long) I even suspect that little Kitty Howard would have been cast off sooner or later, as I should imagine at times she perhaps irritated Henry, with her flighty and reckless behaviour. Whether she would have been executed it another matter. I shall always believe that her death was a terrible travesty and miscarriage of justice just as Anne’s was, but I do have a theory about why she was executed.
I can well imagine what Anne would have said if she was asked about re-marrying Henry after K.H, execution. I believe it would be 2 words, both starting and ending in F.
Anne in my opinion was a very astute and clever woman she enjoyed her life in England, and as Mariette said life at her brother’s court must have seemed very tedious and mundane. I can of get the impression that her brother forbade her to do anything without asking him for permission first.
Heaven help her if she farted in bed without asking her brother first LOL.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 13, 2013
7:28 am
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Boleyn said

I even suspect that little Kitty Howard would have been cast off sooner or later, as I should imagine at times she perhaps irritated Henry, with her flighty and reckless behaviour. Whether she would have been executed it another matter. I shall always believe that her death was a terrible travesty and miscarriage of justice just as Anne’s was, but I do have a theory about why she was executed.

I agree with you, Boleyn. What’s your theory about why KH was executed?

July 13, 2013
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Olga said

Call me cynical, but I suspect part of the reason Henry refused when her brother tried to renegotiate the marriage after Kat Howard was executed was that Anne wasn’t wholly his subject. Whatever false titles he gave her. He only married two foreign princesses, and with the threats he faced after his struggle to annul his first marriage, I wouldn’t think Henry would want to marry a wife he couldn’t control easily. He may have had those regrets in the first few months in his marriage, but I’m just speculating. That’s also why I think he offered her such a generous settlement, he couldn’t really just get rid of her or frame her in any way.

I agree with you, Olga, plus he wouldn’t want to take AOC back after his ego was so bruised the first time when he couldn’t consummate the marriage.

July 13, 2013
9:15 am
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Mariette said

Boleyn said

I even suspect that little Kitty Howard would have been cast off sooner or later, as I should imagine at times she perhaps irritated Henry, with her flighty and reckless behaviour. Whether she would have been executed it another matter. I shall always believe that her death was a terrible travesty and miscarriage of justice just as Anne’s was, but I do have a theory about why she was executed.

I agree with you, Boleyn. What’s your theory about why KH was executed?

Mariette my theory to why Kitty Howard was killed all revoves around Henry’s over inflated (well all of him was over inflated) ego.
It all starts with a remark that Anne B may or may not said (I don’t think Anne said it, Cromwell invented it to blacken Anne.)
Right the chance remark being that Anne said “Henry is no good in bed, and can’t satify a woman.” If we say for the sake of arguement here that she did say it, this is why poor Kitty Howard had to die.
Thin about it. C.O.A was dead, so she couldn’t say anything to defend Henry’s bedroom frolics, Anne was dead, Jane Seymour was dead so couldn’t say otherwise. A.O.C maintained that the marriage was never consummated so wouldnt have known if he was any good or not.
Kitty Howard and Henry had loud and noisy sex so she could certainly say “Yeah do you know something my cousin Anne was right Henry is crap in bed” He couldn’t afford to take the risk that she wouldn’t say anything about his prowess or lack there of.
Henry’s ego took a battering when Anne B was murdered, and to be honest I don’t think he really ever recovered from that.
Poor Kitty Howard was doomed from the start once her indiscretions came to light, he couldn’t live with the fact that Kitty may have all along been comparing Dereham’s lovemaking skills to Henry’s lovemaking skills. The only way of guarenteeing that nothing was said was by killing her.
K.P certainly wouldn’t have said anything about Henry’s sausage or his lovemaking skills whilst he was alive (assuming they even had sex), and once Henry was dead it wouldn’t matter what K.P said.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 13, 2013
11:34 am
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Olga
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Boleyn said
I can well imagine what Anne would have said if she was asked about re-marrying Henry after K.H, execution. I believe it would be 2 words, both starting and ending in F.

Unfortunately I think that’s the sort of thing that’s been perpetuated by fiction. Anne still considered herself married to Henry, much like Katherine of Aragon. When he married Katherine Parr she complained that she was much older than her and not as beautiful. Whether she had feelings for Henry or feelings for what she thought was her rightful place as his wife is of course a mystery, and I do lean towards the latter. But she was certainly not averse to re-marrying him.

On Henry’s ego I think it came into play with all of his wives, there are incidents, for example when KOA publicly admonished him for an affair, when Jane Seymour begged him to restore the monasteries, the horrible game he played with Katherine Parr, threatening her arrest to put her back in her place until she showed him she was submissive, what a wonderful play of words that conversation was, positively Shakespearean. Or his initial meeting with AOC, where she didn’t recognize his silly dress-up game and he was crushed.
Henry’s feelings were easily hurt (oh yes he did have them). But I don’t think his ego was bruised where Anne Boleyn was concerned, he could have easily arrested her for treason just from her conversation with Norris. He allowed the cuckold’s horns to be placed on his head in a spectacular fashion. Didn’t our old buddy Chapuys say “there was never a merrier widower” or something along those lines?
That he had to re-establish his masculinity and authority after he executed Anne Boleyn is certain, but I don’t think his actual ego was bruised or feelings were hurt, but the appearance of it. As I am sure he orchestrated the whole thing.
You should read 1536 by Suzannah Lipscomb sometime, it gives some really interesting theories about Henry’s masculinity, it certainly made me re-think a lot of incidents with his wives.

July 13, 2013
1:36 pm
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Boleyn
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Yes Olga, Henry loved his silly games of make believe and he played the role of the poor bleeding martyr to perfection, Hell he would have put many good Shakespearean actor to shame, with his performances.
What makes me laugh about the whole fiasco at Rochester castle, is did he seriously think that a woman who had been told perhaps very little about the man she was going to marry, should recognise him when he doffed his cap and played the fool basically. Which again leads me to question, what exactly was she told about him? What he would look like etc?
I’m not too sure about this but I think when Anne recieved him she felt he was a servant of the King, and one that was acting beyond his station, especially when he went to kiss her. She must have thought “Dear God what sort of a court has my brother sent me to, to allow servants to go around kissing the King’s wife?”
I didn’t know that Anne felt she was still Henry’s wife after the sham of his 5th marriage began to tear apart, but I did know that when Lard Arse married K.P, she did feel that K.P was of lower status to her. Interesting notion about her remarrying him and I feel that perhaps if they had remarried they would have been happy. Henry’s ego was a large one, and perhaps Anne was just the person to keep it in control so to speak. In some ways looking at Anne behaviour wise her manner is similar to J.S and C.O.A, meek, humble and grateful for what she had and was given. She might not have been as educated as C.O.A, but she was certainly intelligent enough to use her head and keep it when Henry wanted rid of her.
Thanks for the tip on the book I’ll give that a whirl, no not into the chipmunk cage Olga, LOL…

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

July 13, 2013
10:27 pm
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Mariette
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Olga said

That he had to re-establish his masculinity and authority after he executed Anne Boleyn is certain, but I don’t think his actual ego was bruised or feelings were hurt, but the appearance of it. As I am sure he orchestrated the whole thing.
You should read 1536 by Suzannah Lipscomb sometime, it gives some really interesting theories about Henry’s masculinity, it certainly made me re-think a lot of incidents with his wives.

I second that. I ‘ve come to the conclusion that it was Henry was behind Anne Boleyn’s demise and that Cromwell was following the king’s orders. Cromwell told Chapuys that he “had been authorised and commissioned by the king to prosecute and bring to an end the misstress’s trial”. Lipscomb’s 1536 and Schofield’s bio of Cromwell made me re-think the events os 1536.

Boleyn, I hope you enjoy Lipscomb’s 1536.

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