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Anne of Cleves amiable to the annulment or did she hope for reconnciliation
January 18, 2011
10:17 pm
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Anyanka
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What thinkst thou?

Did Milady of Cleves accept the annulment with Grace? With relief? Or did she hope for reconciliation even though H8 married twice afterwards?

 

Was she happy as the Kings Sister and the second lady in the land?

 

Would Anne have re-married H8?

 

All this and more on next week's episode …

It's always bunnies.

January 19, 2011
12:08 am
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Impish_Impulse
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I think she tried to fight it at first, maybe wondering if she was the victim of false rumors (that betrothal to the Duke of Lorraine). But when she realized that Henry wanted to be rid of her, she was happy to take the settlement and status and keep her head, even putting a brave face on it by joining Christmas and New Year's festivities.

I've read that she thought Henry might want her back after KH's execution, so I'm wondering if she was taken in by Henry's ability to 'make nice' with his 'sister', and believed they'd gotten past their bad first impressions. If so, she was to be rejected and disappointed again.

I'm not saying she was stupid, but I think there was an innocence there that gave her problems in the upper-class world she lived in. I think she wanted everyone to play nice and tell the truth and she wanted to make and keep peace and thought everyone else was as transparent with their motives as she was. And was baffled and hurt when that kept being not the case. Of all the wives, I think she would be the easiest to like and get along with.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 20, 2011
1:09 pm
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Sharon
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I think Anne was at first shocked, dismayed, and heartbroken when she learned the King wanted to set her aside.  But this was a very sensible woman.  After she learned the terms of the settlement, she decided to accept them.  She was to stay in England. She wasn't going to be shipped to some godforsaken castle to die, and she wasn't going to be beheaded. She didn't have to return to her brother.  (Which was a plus.)  I believe she said had she returned home, her brother would slay her.  I think she was relieved when it was over.  She was living well and she made the best of her situation.  That doesn't mean she did not want to be Henry's Queen.  Upon the demise of Catherine, Anne was hoping Henry would be open to remarriage, but that was not to be.  Henry chose to marry Katherine Parr.  Anne as sensible as ever, accepted her life in England and her position as sister to the King.

January 20, 2011
9:05 pm
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MegC
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I don't know. I don't know that Anne was as shocked or surprised or dismayed about the divorce as you would think.  I mean, the marriage wasn't consummated–and it kind of sounds like neither party was especially eager to consummate it.  Neither found the other especially attractive and H8 had that disgusting, suppurating ulcer which didn't exactly make him smell fresh as a daisy even by 16th century standards (I'll never understand how KH got past that…).  While she probably HOPED that she and Henry could work things out (and perhaps suspected that she could remain queen while Henry kept his mistresses), she was, I think, a very practical, clear-headed woman.  While I'm not going to say that AoC knew what she was getting herself into when she married Henry, I think she was certainly aware of both his divorce from KoA and his beheading of AB.  Not only that, she had big shoes to fill–following in the steps of the “beloved” Jane Seymour (and, if you think about it from that aspect, then maybe no one stood a chance when it came to being the post-Jane wife).  Anyway, what I'm driving at is that Henry's track-record wasn't any kind of big secret, and Anne wasn't obtuse enough to not be able to connect the dots.  I think she knew that her time was running short, and she was just hoping to survive.  

It's a sad situation because I think that if Henry could have given her a chance, Anne could have been a very good queen and wife.  Anne was wise enough, though, to know when to fold her cards and cash out.  And she made out quite well.  In a strange kind of way, she was sort of adopted into Henry's family.

I had also read somewhere that someone had suggested a remarriage between her and Henry after KH's execution, and Henry responded with a most decided no.  I don't know if the suggestion was every posed to Anne herself.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

January 21, 2011
6:29 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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I cannot believe that Anne of Cleves was happy about the annulment, as it could damage her reputation as being a discarded bride. Royal women were taught their destiny was to marry and carry on a bloodline. Having said that, Anne was an intelligent women, and unlike Henry's other wives, knew better than to fight him.

Anne of Cleves won out in the end. She took what was offered to her, showed Henry and his court that she was a reasonable women, aware of what was necessary to survive and live peacefully with the King and his children. Unlike the others who came before her, Anne of Cleves was politically savvy enough to find a place for herself, when she easily could have been roughly pushed aside like her predecessors.

I am sure there must have been times when Anne of Cleves hoped for a reconciliation. I've read in the past, she hoped for a reunion with Henry after Catherine Howard was executed, but I cannot remember the source of this information.

I've always felt that Anne of Cleves was the best choice of a wife for Henry. She was reasonable, kind, intelligent without being difficult, arrogant or having a temper. If Henry wanted the perfect Tudor wife, Anne of Cleves was it. His children adored her, she loved them and him, and would have provided the best domestic structure for him.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

January 21, 2011
10:48 am
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Sharon
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  The question of remarriage was not posed to Anne by Henry.  However, in Starkey's book, The Six Wives, he mentions the Duke, Anne's brother, tried to initiate talks of remarriage.  Henry refused to see the Duke's emissary, Harst.  Harst took the issue to the Privy Council who dashed all hope of a marriage to Anne.  Anne had some very important people backing the reconciliation which probably gave her false hope.  Marillac, the French Ambassador, and Margaret of Navarre were two of them.  Anne had her hopes up again and was very disappointed by the renewed rejection. Once again, she swallowed her pride and accepted the King's original terms.  Actually, the Privy Council explained “that the Lady Anne should be graciously entertained and her estate rather increased than diminished.”  So it looks like she may have prospered from this rejection also.

February 3, 2011
10:25 am
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Nasim
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DuchessofBrittany said:

I cannot believe that Anne of Cleves was happy about the annulment, as it could damage her reputation as being a discarded bride. Royal women were taught their destiny was to marry and carry on a bloodline. Having said that, Anne was an intelligent women, and unlike Henry's other wives, knew better than to fight him.


DuchessofBrittany raises an excellent point by drawing attention to the shame that fell on Anne with the dissolution of the union (and the rather humiliating way Henry brought it about).Certainly contemporaries thought it was humiliating and Anne is presented in a rather pathetic manner in various writings, including in ‘The Remonstrance of Anne of Cleves’, a French tract that portrayed Anne as a woman saddened by the dishonour done to her. When Katherine Howard was executed, we know that discussions began about the possibility of Henry taking back Anne to restore her ‘honour’. Obviously he wasn’t remotely interested in having her back, but the fact that some members of the Cleves side even thought about such a thing could occur is interesting, and Chapuys was concerned about this (being the representative for William of Cleves’s enemy, Charles V). As Sharon notes, Anne had to be rejected once more.

 

What made matters worse for Anne, was Henry’s insistence that she was the rightful wife of the duke of Lorraine. When Lorraine married another – Christina of Milan – Henry refused to recognise the match. So in England Anne was seen as the ‘ditched’ wife of Lorraine; abroad she was the discarded wife of Henry VIII. Not a pleasant situation for her.

 

I would certainly recommend Retha Warnicke’s study on the Cleves marriage which goes into a lot of detail about Anne’s reluctance to see her marriage end. It is also the only study that has examined Anne, and England's relationship with Cleves, in any considerable depth.

"Much as her form seduc'd the sight,
Her eyes could ev'n more surely woo;"

February 3, 2011
11:17 am
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MegC
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Nasim said:

DuchessofBrittany said:

I cannot believe that Anne of Cleves was happy about the annulment, as it could damage her reputation as being a discarded bride. Royal women were taught their destiny was to marry and carry on a bloodline. Having said that, Anne was an intelligent women, and unlike Henry's other wives, knew better than to fight him.

 

What made matters worse for Anne, was Henry’s insistence that she was the rightful wife of the duke of Lorraine. When Lorraine married another – Christina of Milan – Henry refused to recognise the match. So in England Anne was seen as the ‘ditched’ wife of Lorraine; abroad she was the discarded wife of Henry VIII. Not a pleasant situation for her.

 

I had forgotten all about the whole Duke of Lorraine angle.  So sad for Anne because I really think she would have been an EXCELLENT match for Henry if he had chosen to think with the head on his shoulders instead of the one in his pants.  And, this might sound strange, but I don't think it helped her any that her name was “Anne”.  Regardless of the time that  had passed, I think Hank still had strong feelings for AB–whether those feelings were positive or negative, I don't know, but when two people love each other as passionately as AB and H8 did, I don't know that those feelings ever really recede.  They may change, but I don't think that they ever disappear.  

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

February 3, 2011
12:56 pm
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Sharon
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 Christina of Milan was one of the ladies Henry was inquiring about marrying after Jane died.  Wasn't she the one who said if she had two heads she would gladly have given one of them to Henry?  Laugh  Couldn't resist.  Maybe Henry had more than one motive for refusing to recognize her marriage to Lorraine.

I had not thought of the Duke of Lorraine mess either.  It seems Anne was humiliated quite often by Henry.  The papers, stating the betrothal between Anne and the Duke had been broken legally, were never sent to Henry; and Anne had to sign a declaration before Council stating she was free of any previous contracts the day before they were married.  The more I read about Anne the more I love her.  She had to be a very strong lady to have borne the humiliation heaped upon her. 

February 3, 2011
5:37 pm
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Anyanka
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Christina was indeed that lady.

 

H8 was a total jerk to AoC.From the moment they met until well after their annulment, he demanded more and more submission from Anne. I'd have been glad to dump him.

It's always bunnies.

February 4, 2011
10:57 am
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Bella44
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I think Anne of Cleves is a fascinating character – found herself in a strange land, humiliated before the world by the man she married yet still managed (I think!) to maintain something of his respect whilst building a new life for herself and forging good relationships with all his children.  Not easy with such siblings as Mary, Elizabeth and Edward.

Perhaps deep down she wished for the restoration of her marriage to Henry – after all that had been the role alloted to her in life – but was wise enough to know not to rock the boat.  And given what happened to Henry's previous wives, she must have been scared out of her wits yet still managed to handle it all with grace and dignity.

I always liked the story of her and Katherine Howard dancing the night away at the New Years celebrations while Henry grumped off to bed early with his bad leg.  He he!  Smile 

February 4, 2011
4:48 pm
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MegC
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Bella44 said:

I think Anne of Cleves is a fascinating character – found herself in a strange land, humiliated before the world by the man she married yet still managed (I think!) to maintain something of his respect whilst building a new life for herself and forging good relationships with all his children.  Not easy with such siblings as Mary, Elizabeth and Edward.

Perhaps deep down she wished for the restoration of her marriage to Henry – after all that had been the role alloted to her in life – but was wise enough to know not to rock the boat.  And given what happened to Henry's previous wives, she must have been scared out of her wits yet still managed to handle it all with grace and dignity.

I always liked the story of her and Katherine Howard dancing the night away at the New Years celebrations while Henry grumped off to bed early with his bad leg.  He he!  Smile 


That is amazingly gracious of her and shows a patience, wisdom, and maturity that I don't know that I would have had–dancing away with the woman my husband had been sleeping around with?  One more reason why I think Anne would really have been Henry's ideal wife if he had given her the chance.

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

February 5, 2011
6:46 am
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Nasim
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Sharon said:

 Christina of Milan was one of the ladies Henry was inquiring about marrying after Jane died.  Wasn't she the one who said if she had two heads she would gladly have given one of them to Henry?  Laugh 


 

I would love to say that this story was true, however it was first mentioned in the seventeenth-century, and contemporary despatches imply that Christina was rather keen on becoming Queen of England. It seems though that Marie de Guise’s dismissal of Henry may be correct. Henry desired, in his own words, a “big wife” (i.e. a tall woman) because he was “big in person” (6ft 2in). He heard that Marie was rather tall, along with being quite good looking. She retorted that “I may be big in person but my neck is small”. Meow!

"Much as her form seduc'd the sight,
Her eyes could ev'n more surely woo;"

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