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A view on Katherine Howard
August 23, 2011
1:04 pm
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Anyelka
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Hi everyone,

I just finished reading David Starkey's “Six wives” and I must say the part on Katherine Howard was the one I found the most interesting (as I already knew about Anne Boleyn). The Seymour part seemed very short!

And I came to think that this queen seemed to be the one Henri VIII loved the most. (Cool I hear the screaming out of ya) Or one of those he loved most, with Anne Boleyn. According to Marillac, French ambassador, he was “so amorous of her that he [couldn't]treat her well enough and [caressed] her more than he did the others”. But not only. I dont think I ever read he did take any mistress during her reign, contrarily to all the other ones (we can argue that she was young and attractive), he showed continuous love and foundness for her, up to the end, after some two years (he usually got bored well before that didn't he?) and didn't want to believe what he thought were mere gossips against her.

He also granted her the lives of prisoners like Wyatt and Wallop, and his daughters found their right place at Court again, though he usually did not like that kind of interference with his business.

According to Chapuys, he shown “greater sorrow and regret at her loss than at the faults, loss or divorce of his preceding wives”. And Chapuys had been a witness of henry's reactions since Catherine of Aragon.

I also looks to me as if, this time, he really intended this marriage to go all the way long. He didn't seem put off by the fact that she didn't get pregnant, -or is there any account of something like that?

I do not have the “Lady in the tower” with me, but I think it was where I read that he didn't sign the death warrant with his hand, when he had for Anne Boleyn. But this time, he didn't give her up, she did hurt his love for her.

Now, it can be argued that it was for wathever reason: for example he was old and she was young so the charm of youth acted longer on the old monster, but the other wives weren't so old either…

As for Katherine's character, it does not correspond to any glimpse I had until now, through movies, series or encyclopedias. Is there anything stupid at all in her character, except for her fatal relationship with Culpepper? I read some biographers have called her superficial. It is funny how any historical figure who was said to like jewels, dresses and such things is very quickly declared empty headed and superficial. Elizabeth I loved all this too, yet, as she proved a great queen for England and had such a wide scene to express her various talents, we can't make the same out of her. But a woman who didn't have a great education and who didn't exercise any power -she didn't meddle in religious affairs, and that was quite wise at that stage, what was left to her in the position of Queen?

As for the infamous adultery, nothing can make us assert that she was led by her lust: there never was proof that anything happened between the two, -we can even say that he at least died only because love words had been exchanged, this is monstrous! And even though Culpepper said it would certainly have happened eventually, the risks they took just for talking to each other indicate at least that it wasn't just “lust”. It seems only that a young woman in love tried to live a little bit of this love. And she hadnt been used to a much virtuous behavior obviously… Like Anne Boleyn, she hadn't been brought up to be queen, she had to compose with what she knew, and what she knew she ought to do. It doesnt mean she could change her upbringing and what she learnt about her own nature.

 

Im looking forward to read more about her though all the trial affair is just outrageous.

Smile

August 23, 2011
1:46 pm
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Mya Elise
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Hmmm after reading this every one of my opinions on Kathryn… has changed or been questioned by myself. Usually i do all the research i can and then make my conclusions of them. I had decided that Kathryn was pretty, had a ..rather free and un ruled childhood where she had mere crushes on two men which as most teens do made it out to be love. I think she may have been shocked at the marriage proposal from Henry but accepted anyways. I think she did love jewels and gowns because she was afterall a girl and because she probably wasn't used to being doted on and seeing so many beautiful things so she went crazy with them. I also think that maybe Kathryn didn't think of Henry as a proper husband…maybe she felt like he was the father or something she never had and he spolied her like a proper & always present dad would. Sometimes when you have an absent father you crave that attention from older men. The only un father part was the sexual part, of course. Then when she met Culpepper, a young and handsome young man, she liked him right away. I do think that there was a sexual or intimate part in the Culpepper relationship, not just words. I think Kathryn thought that if she was careful enough and had help then she wouldn't get caught, this was her fatal mistake. The fact that they met secretly and even gave into some kind of relationship was wrong but i don't blame Kathryn. She was a young woman, she was going to make mistakes no matter what and now that she was Queen instead of a commoner mistakes were obviously fatal now. Even the slightest mistake. Meeting Henry was the life changing experience that ultimately killed her. That moment was it for her. 

I think Henry, in some way, loved all his wifes, except Anne Of Cleves…i think he just respected her. Kind of. 

It wasn't KOA's fault Henry abandoned her. It wasn't Anne's fault he beheaded her. It wasn't Jane's fault she died in childbirth. It wasn't AOC's fault he liked her portrait and turned out not his ideal woman. It wasn't Kathryn's fault she was so young and made mistakes. And it wasn't Catherine Parr's fault she had different religious views although she barely survived. 

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 24, 2011
3:07 am
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Katheryn admitted only to talking with Culpepper. However, when one “talks” to a handsome young man in the privy, it is bound to be questioned. I used to think her nothing more than guilty of being impetuously silly- but the toilet thing? Two people of the opposite sex in a toilet together? Well, it's a bit sordid.

To have key witnesses of her immoral behaviour before her marriage- Dereham, Bulmer, in her employ after her marriage and when Queen of England is risky. To have anything to do with one so indiscreet as Dereham is just stupid.

To be arranging trysts- even if it is just talk, with another man when you have been alive and would have certainly heard about the cruel treatment of those who crossed or just plain irritated your new husband= Stupid.

So as much as I like and feel sorry for Kitty Howard I think its pretty fair to say she was an idiot. A pretty, young, fine boned little idiot with a high sex drive. Perfect for an old pedo like Henry!

I mean, how did she not know the fire would burn? She must have- she had seen it burn before- repeatedly, yet still put her hand in it!

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

August 24, 2011
4:50 am
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Anyanka
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Of all Henry's many faults, he wasn't a pedophile.

 

With the exception of KH, who was around 19 when they married ,  his other wives were in their 20's or 30's at the time of thier marriages.

 

Elizabeth Blount was around 14 when she became H's mistress but in those days the age of consent was 12. To judge Henry by our mores regarding the age of consent when the nobility often married their women off at an early age is not taking into account the culture of the times.

It's always bunnies.

August 24, 2011
12:00 pm
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Sharon
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Henry treated Katherine like a prized possession.  A loving little pet.  She loved jewels, dancing, clothes, and having a good time.  I can't take anything away from her for enjoying her new found wealth.  Henry loved giving her things because she showed her appreciation to him.  She made Henry happy and he spoiled her. 

 Just because his hands were all over her in public doesn't mean he loved her best.  What has been called love in this case seems to be a big case of lust.  If Henry did not look to other women during this marriage, the reason was probably due to the fact that Katherine was a most accommodating partner. What more could he ask for?  And for the life of me, I don't know how she did it.

When Henry was happy, the world was a grand place.  Katherine made him feel young again.  So when she asked, he allowed Wyatt and Wallop to be freed.  Eventually Katherine's relationship with Mary became cordial and Mary was at court. Not often but sometimes, even Elizabeth was there.  But do we actually believe that he allowed these things to take place because he loved Katherine and she had asked nicely?  We know that she asked and failed to save Lady Salisbury's life.  I think he patted her on the head and said, 'okay honey I'll let Wyatt and Wallop out of prison because I love you,' knowing full well he would have released them eventually without any encouragement from her.  And he was never going to release Lady Salisbury.

Chapuys and the rest of the court did witness Henry's grief over the loss of Katherine.  However, the behavior they took as grief because of his great love for Katherine,  I see as being his self-pity, shock and humiliation.  She really did put one over on him.  He looked like an old fool in front of the world.  She embarrassed the hell out of him.

I don't know what Katherine felt for Culpeper. They were both young people, and I don't blame Katherine for wanting to be with a man who was closer to her own age. I just don't know how they could have taken the chances they took.  Even if Katherine thought she could talk her way around Henry, or for that matter to think they wouldn't get caught, Culpeper had to have known what Henry would do to them if he found them out.  Both of them made the deadly choice to meet privately…while on progress…with help from her waiting woman…at night…after the king had gone to bed. 

Had Katherine been able to hold herself in check, and not have an affair, maybe she would have been the last wife he would have taken. As was mentioned, he did not cheat on her in the 2 years they were married.  At least we don't think he did.  She may have even given him the spare he wanted.  Alas that was not to be.  One of them was bound to screw it up.

August 26, 2011
9:17 am
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Anne fan
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I think Katheryn's is the saddest story of the lot.

She just wanted to have a good time – hence her flirtation with Culpepper. The evidence seems to point to them knowing they were taking a risk by meeting in secret, hence hiding in the toilet, but not doing anything, although I believe Culpepper's testimony when he says that they would have eventually – there's no reason to doubt that bit.

She was thrown into a world that was too much for her so she brings people who are familiar to her from her childhood days despite the risk.

She couldn't cope with Henry – well, let's face it the majority of his wives couldn't so nowt new there.

Her family used her to advance themselves.

Henry found it rather a relief that he could rise to the occasion with her after his failure with AoC.

Jane Rochford seems to have taken leave of her senses and egged Katheryn and Culpepper on for the excitement (well, I suppose Henry's court might have been a bit boring for her…)

Who ever looked out for Katheryn?

August 28, 2011
12:27 am
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Impish_Impulse
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She may have been naïve also about how much scrutiny she would be under by rival factions at court who were just waiting for her to put her foot in it so they could pounce. She may have thought the only person she had to fool was Henry.

                        survivor ribbon                             

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          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

September 3, 2011
10:27 am
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I agree, Impish_Impulse. After all, she was quite young, I don't think superbly educated, and my guess is not extremely intelligent. Also, her family sort of blindsided her, and she wanted to believe in the King's all-encompassing love for her. She probably considered herself untouchable.

Or she could have been so desperate for a son that she felt that she had to have a sexual relationship with someone other than her husband in order to secure her place.

Which does everyone think is more likely?

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

September 3, 2011
11:29 am
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Sharon
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I tend to go with the belief that she never gave a thought to rival factions. I think she did believe the only one she had to fool was Henry.  I agree, as queen, young Katherine would have considered herself untouchable.

As to her desperation to have a son etc….I hope that is not what she was thinking. For me that is really stretching Katherine's motives. That sounds so very 'desperate housewife' to me. It seems to me she was just looking to have some fun with a guy her own age. Katherine and Culpeper both swore they had not done the deed. Culpeper said it would have ended up that way, but they had not gone that far. If she had given any thought to the possibility that she could get pregnant…duh…or caught, maybe she would not have begun the affair at all. I don't think there was anything in that pretty little head of hers except where and when to meet Culpeper.  The girl was not thinking any further than her next assignation. 

September 3, 2011
2:42 pm
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Claire-Louise
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Anyelka said:

Hi everyone,

I just finished reading David Starkey’s “Six wives” and I must say the part on Katherine Howard was the one I found the most interesting (as I already knew about Anne Boleyn). The Seymour part seemed very short!

And I came to think that this queen seemed to be the one Henri VIII loved the most. (Cool I hear the screaming out of ya) Or one of those he loved most, with Anne Boleyn. According to Marillac, French ambassador, he was “so amorous of her that he [couldn’t]treat her well enough and [caressed] her more than he did the others”. But not only. I dont think I ever read he did take any mistress during her reign, contrarily to all the other ones (we can argue that she was young and attractive), he showed continuous love and foundness for her, up to the end, after some two years (he usually got bored well before that didn’t he?) and didn’t want to believe what he thought were mere gossips against her.

He also granted her the lives of prisoners like Wyatt and Wallop, and his daughters found their right place at Court again, though he usually did not like that kind of interference with his business.

According to Chapuys, he shown “greater sorrow and regret at her loss than at the faults, loss or divorce of his preceding wives”. And Chapuys had been a witness of henry’s reactions since Catherine of Aragon.

I also looks to me as if, this time, he really intended this marriage to go all the way long. He didn’t seem put off by the fact that she didn’t get pregnant, -or is there any account of something like that?

I do not have the “Lady in the tower” with me, but I think it was where I read that he didn’t sign the death warrant with his hand, when he had for Anne Boleyn. But this time, he didn’t give her up, she did hurt his love for her.

Now, it can be argued that it was for wathever reason: for example he was old and she was young so the charm of youth acted longer on the old monster, but the other wives weren’t so old either…

As for Katherine’s character, it does not correspond to any glimpse I had until now, through movies, series or encyclopedias. Is there anything stupid at all in her character, except for her fatal relationship with Culpepper? I read some biographers have called her superficial. It is funny how any historical figure who was said to like jewels, dresses and such things is very quickly declared empty headed and superficial. Elizabeth I loved all this too, yet, as she proved a great queen for England and had such a wide scene to express her various talents, we can’t make the same out of her. But a woman who didn’t have a great education and who didn’t exercise any power -she didn’t meddle in religious affairs, and that was quite wise at that stage, what was left to her in the position of Queen?

As for the infamous adultery, nothing can make us assert that she was led by her lust: there never was proof that anything happened between the two, -we can even say that he at least died only because love words had been exchanged, this is monstrous! And even though Culpepper said it would certainly have happened eventually, the risks they took just for talking to each other indicate at least that it wasn’t just “lust”. It seems only that a young woman in love tried to live a little bit of this love. And she hadnt been used to a much virtuous behavior obviously… Like Anne Boleyn, she hadn’t been brought up to be queen, she had to compose with what she knew, and what she knew she ought to do. It doesnt mean she could change her upbringing and what she learnt about her own nature.

 

Im looking forward to read more about her though all the trial affair is just outrageous.

Smile

Hi Anyelka

I'm on a bit of a personal mission to find out more about Kitty Howard Smile I'm really fascinated with her, and I agree with you when you say 'is there anything stupid about her character at all? except her fatal relationship with Culpeper'. I think we often forget that Catherine was not provided with a good education, and not brought up to be Queen, and it's a shame that not only novels, but also biographies portray her as so stupid and superficial.

As for how much Henry loved her I do not know. A friend of mine once said to me 'Isn't it funny how Henry beheaded what were probably his two most attractive wives'. I admit I called him a shauvinist.. always thinking about what women looked like, but he had a point. He also pointed out that they were the two wives he seemed most 'keen on' and most 'in love with'. Therefore I believe that it would perhaps be better to say that Catherine was one of the wives which Henry was most 'fixated' on, rather than the one he loved the most.

September 3, 2011
4:47 pm
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Mya Elise
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I think people thought she was dingy because she was very energetic and she was still young. I think people expected a Queen to be acceptably intelligent and someone who knew how to handle Queenly duties and Kathryn came out of no where and didn't really have an education so she didn't really know how to handle stuff she was expected to do. Both Anne Boleyn & KOA were very smart and could give advice and they understood politic's and religious stuff. Jane Seymour and AOC weren't Queens for very long so they didn't have the opportunity to show if they could handle that stuff. I'm sure they woulda been dubbed 'stupid' also, maybe. 

Kathryn Howard came from a wild house and they were so many other kids that she wasn't given the proper education options etc etc. I just think Kathryn loved being doted on and loved all the attention she received that nothing else mattered to her. I think Kathryn felt that Henry was so much in love with her that if she was caught doing something she could talk her way out of it and everything would be A OK. I agree that the only thing about her character which was even the slightest 'stupid' thing was her affair with Culpepper. Now i know some people on this site believe there wasn't a sexual relationship between them but at least Kathryn's execution was based on actual true events and actually had real evidence whereas in Anne Boleyn's case..her execution was in every way wrong because she was innocent in everything they accused her of. I don't think Kathryn deserved death because she was so young and young people are naturally going to make mistakes and that's what happened but it was fatal in her case. She was a Queen and Queens were not allowed to cheat, unless they intentionally want to die.  

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

September 17, 2011
8:04 pm
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Anyanka said:

Of all Henry’s many faults, he wasn’t a pedophile.

 

With the exception of KH, who was around 19 when they married ,  his other wives were in their 20’s or 30’s at the time of thier marriages.

 

Elizabeth Blount was around 14 when she became H’s mistress but in those days the age of consent was 12. To judge Henry by our mores regarding the age of consent when the nobility often married their women off at an early age is not taking into account the culture of the times.

You are guilty of taking me too seriously! A perverse old man with a pretty young wife and I love to insult Henry= pedo.  I wasn't stating nor will I, that he really was.

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

September 17, 2011
8:24 pm
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Anyanka
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Mea culpa Milady E..

 

Still friends???

It's always bunnies.

September 18, 2011
4:03 pm
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Mya Elise
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There weren't pedophiles back then for god sake! 

Older men just tended to like younger women because they were the more fertile and once their wives died either from old age or child birth then yeah i could see an old man marrying a young girl to have more babies and keep his name going and having boys to leave behind. People didn't think it was wrong for a 50 year old to marry a 16 or 18 year old. It's not like an 80 year old and a 10 year old. Of course it's wrong to us now but back then … no it wasn't.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

September 19, 2011
12:15 am
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Elliemarianna
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I personally feel sorry for Katherine – I can't imagine how disgusting it must of been, having that obese, smelly old man, huffing and puffing on top of you, breathing his rotten breath in your face, while his leg leaks puss all over the place. I don't blame her for falling for someone else.

Katherine may be stupid by our standards, but remember that an education for women was seen as unimportant compared to housewifely duty. CoA and AnneB were lucky to get the education they had, many women couldn't read or write, so I'm sure Katharine's lack of education didn't matter much.

No matter how stupid she may have been with Culpepper, who are we to judge? She was a young woman, with the experience of a child, thrust into the glittering world of court life, who was obviously ruled by her heart not her head. She did her wifely duty, made Henry happy, but she wasn't happy with Henry, just her status. She knew how to keep Henry happy – she dressed like Anne, behaved like Jane, but a lot less quiet! I think this shows a certain common sense on her part.

Ultimately, do we not believe love always comes first? She chose love (in her eyes) and lost her head – literally.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

September 19, 2011
2:53 pm
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Mya Elise
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I agree completely with Elliemarianna.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

September 20, 2011
8:27 am
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Sharon
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I do not think Katherine was stupid. Book-learning does not prepare a person for life’s challenges. I know people with several degrees who cannot handle what life throws at them. They do not have the coping mechanisms to deal.  IMO being able to deal with life’s challenges is obtained through family.

Katherine was young and was not taught how to deal with life's situations. She had no parental guidance. If she had had a family member who cared about her and had given her the tools needed to cope with Henry and his court, she may have turned out different.  She was left on her own. 

Maybe once in a while that Grandmother of hers would yell at her, but she never sat the girl down and explained how Katherine should comport herself.   She ignored Katherine as much as she ignored all of the children at her place. As long as they attended their classes, Grandma assumed they were getting the education they needed. That is if she thought about them at all. That would be like a parent today thinking that once their child goes to school, their parental responsibility ends, and it is the teacher's responsibility to take care of them.

Yes, Katherine had the Howard pride, but she never had their love or guidance.  How could she have known that the way she dealt with life was wrong?  No one had ever explained to her the difference between right and wrong.

September 21, 2011
3:36 am
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Good point Sharon. Although there are exceptions of course, in the main we all need the love and guidance of our family to help us cope with the world. True then, now, and at any point in the future.

Regarding those with degrees, I concur with you on this point also. Most of the ruperts I've come across wouldn't have lasted two minutes in a pressure situation on their own. Books are one thing, but an understanding of how to act and interact with people in the “real” world is far more important. Before all of you with degrees jump on my case, I must emphasise that I speak from personal experience and would not make the mistake of putting everybody with a degree in the same catagory. It's just a case of “speaking” as I find, no offence meant to anyone on here!

September 21, 2011
5:09 am
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Anyanka said:

Mea culpa Milady E..

 

Still friends???

Nulla sollicitudoMilady Anyanka LaughLaughLaugh

Of course xx

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

September 21, 2011
5:45 am
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I don't think she was stupid because she wasn't book learnt. I think she was stupid to have an affair on a man as vindictive and cruel as Henry.

I agree that she had her childhood robbed. I disagree with the statement that had her family supported her she may have turned out different. Anne had the support of her family after all.

It seems that AB Files fans show quite a lot of support for Kitty Howard and I wonder why this should be?

Its not that I don't feel a great pity for her, of course, I feel the poor lovely little thing was isolated and very alone. It is terrible that she was picked up and though unsuitable as consort created as such. But surly, she was aware of Henry's treatment of his previous queens- all she had to do was continue with Henry, not employ those two she chose to and not fool around with Culpepper.

Perhaps she should have mentioned to Henry her past, and indicated that she would enjoy to be his mistress, not his wife…. Then she could have been with, maybe even married Culpepper.

Mya-Elise, what on earth makes you think pedophiles were non existent in the 16th Century? If the oldest profession is prostitution, the oldest crime is pedophilia! Any way, after reading my post, what made you think I was serious? None of us here is overly fond of Henry. And in your opinion, when were pedophiles invented?Surprised

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

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