Hmmm after reading this every one of my opinions on Kathryn… has changed or been questioned by myself. Usually i do all the research i can and then make my conclusions of them. I had decided that Kathryn was pretty, had a ..rather free and un ruled childhood where she had mere crushes on two men which as most teens do made it out to be love. I think she may have been shocked at the marriage proposal from Henry but accepted anyways. I think she did love jewels and gowns because she was afterall a girl and because she probably wasn't used to being doted on and seeing so many beautiful things so she went crazy with them. I also think that maybe Kathryn didn't think of Henry as a proper husband…maybe she felt like he was the father or something she never had and he spolied her like a proper & always present dad would. Sometimes when you have an absent father you crave that attention from older men. The only un father part was the sexual part, of course. Then when she met Culpepper, a young and handsome young man, she liked him right away. I do think that there was a sexual or intimate part in the Culpepper relationship, not just words. I think Kathryn thought that if she was careful enough and had help then she wouldn't get caught, this was her fatal mistake. The fact that they met secretly and even gave into some kind of relationship was wrong but i don't blame Kathryn. She was a young woman, she was going to make mistakes no matter what and now that she was Queen instead of a commoner mistakes were obviously fatal now. Even the slightest mistake. Meeting Henry was the life changing experience that ultimately killed her. That moment was it for her. 

I think Henry, in some way, loved all his wifes, except Anne Of Cleves…i think he just respected her. Kind of. 

It wasn't KOA's fault Henry abandoned her. It wasn't Anne's fault he beheaded her. It wasn't Jane's fault she died in childbirth. It wasn't AOC's fault he liked her portrait and turned out not his ideal woman. It wasn't Kathryn's fault she was so young and made mistakes. And it wasn't Catherine Parr's fault she had different religious views although she barely survived. 

Of all Henry's many faults, he wasn't a pedophile.

With the exception of KH, who was around 19 when they married ,  his other wives were in their 20's or 30's at the time of thier marriages.

Elizabeth Blount was around 14 when she became H's mistress but in those days the age of consent was 12. To judge Henry by our mores regarding the age of consent when the nobility often married their women off at an early age is not taking into account the culture of the times.

I think Katheryn's is the saddest story of the lot.

She just wanted to have a good time – hence her flirtation with Culpepper. The evidence seems to point to them knowing they were taking a risk by meeting in secret, hence hiding in the toilet, but not doing anything, although I believe Culpepper's testimony when he says that they would have eventually – there's no reason to doubt that bit.

She was thrown into a world that was too much for her so she brings people who are familiar to her from her childhood days despite the risk.

She couldn't cope with Henry – well, let's face it the majority of his wives couldn't so nowt new there.

Her family used her to advance themselves.

Henry found it rather a relief that he could rise to the occasion with her after his failure with AoC.

Jane Rochford seems to have taken leave of her senses and egged Katheryn and Culpepper on for the excitement (well, I suppose Henry's court might have been a bit boring for her…)

Who ever looked out for Katheryn?

I agree, Impish_Impulse. After all, she was quite young, I don't think superbly educated, and my guess is not extremely intelligent. Also, her family sort of blindsided her, and she wanted to believe in the King's all-encompassing love for her. She probably considered herself untouchable.

Or she could have been so desperate for a son that she felt that she had to have a sexual relationship with someone other than her husband in order to secure her place.

Which does everyone think is more likely?

Anyelka said:

Hi everyone,

I just finished reading David Starkey’s “Six wives” and I must say the part on Katherine Howard was the one I found the most interesting (as I already knew about Anne Boleyn). The Seymour part seemed very short!

And I came to think that this queen seemed to be the one Henri VIII loved the most. ( I hear the screaming out of ya) Or one of those he loved most, with Anne Boleyn. According to Marillac, French ambassador, he was “so amorous of her that he [couldn’t]treat her well enough and [caressed] her more than he did the others”. But not only. I dont think I ever read he did take any mistress during her reign, contrarily to all the other ones (we can argue that she was young and attractive), he showed continuous love and foundness for her, up to the end, after some two years (he usually got bored well before that didn’t he?) and didn’t want to believe what he thought were mere gossips against her.

He also granted her the lives of prisoners like Wyatt and Wallop, and his daughters found their right place at Court again, though he usually did not like that kind of interference with his business.

According to Chapuys, he shown “greater sorrow and regret at her loss than at the faults, loss or divorce of his preceding wives”. And Chapuys had been a witness of henry’s reactions since Catherine of Aragon.

I also looks to me as if, this time, he really intended this marriage to go all the way long. He didn’t seem put off by the fact that she didn’t get pregnant, -or is there any account of something like that?

I do not have the “Lady in the tower” with me, but I think it was where I read that he didn’t sign the death warrant with his hand, when he had for Anne Boleyn. But this time, he didn’t give her up, she did hurt his love for her.

Now, it can be argued that it was for wathever reason: for example he was old and she was young so the charm of youth acted longer on the old monster, but the other wives weren’t so old either…

As for Katherine’s character, it does not correspond to any glimpse I had until now, through movies, series or encyclopedias. Is there anything stupid at all in her character, except for her fatal relationship with Culpepper? I read some biographers have called her superficial. It is funny how any historical figure who was said to like jewels, dresses and such things is very quickly declared empty headed and superficial. Elizabeth I loved all this too, yet, as she proved a great queen for England and had such a wide scene to express her various talents, we can’t make the same out of her. But a woman who didn’t have a great education and who didn’t exercise any power -she didn’t meddle in religious affairs, and that was quite wise at that stage, what was left to her in the position of Queen?

As for the infamous adultery, nothing can make us assert that she was led by her lust: there never was proof that anything happened between the two, -we can even say that he at least died only because love words had been exchanged, this is monstrous! And even though Culpepper said it would certainly have happened eventually, the risks they took just for talking to each other indicate at least that it wasn’t just “lust”. It seems only that a young woman in love tried to live a little bit of this love. And she hadnt been used to a much virtuous behavior obviously… Like Anne Boleyn, she hadn’t been brought up to be queen, she had to compose with what she knew, and what she knew she ought to do. It doesnt mean she could change her upbringing and what she learnt about her own nature.

 

Im looking forward to read more about her though all the trial affair is just outrageous.

Hi Anyelka

I'm on a bit of a personal mission to find out more about Kitty Howard  I'm really fascinated with her, and I agree with you when you say 'is there anything stupid about her character at all? except her fatal relationship with Culpeper'. I think we often forget that Catherine was not provided with a good education, and not brought up to be Queen, and it's a shame that not only novels, but also biographies portray her as so stupid and superficial.

As for how much Henry loved her I do not know. A friend of mine once said to me 'Isn't it funny how Henry beheaded what were probably his two most attractive wives'. I admit I called him a shauvinist.. always thinking about what women looked like, but he had a point. He also pointed out that they were the two wives he seemed most 'keen on' and most 'in love with'. Therefore I believe that it would perhaps be better to say that Catherine was one of the wives which Henry was most 'fixated' on, rather than the one he loved the most.

There weren't pedophiles back then for god sake! 

Older men just tended to like younger women because they were the more fertile and once their wives died either from old age or child birth then yeah i could see an old man marrying a young girl to have more babies and keep his name going and having boys to leave behind. People didn't think it was wrong for a 50 year old to marry a 16 or 18 year old. It's not like an 80 year old and a 10 year old. Of course it's wrong to us now but back then … no it wasn't.

I agree completely with Elliemarianna.

Good point Sharon. Although there are exceptions of course, in the main we all need the love and guidance of our family to help us cope with the world. True then, now, and at any point in the future.

Regarding those with degrees, I concur with you on this point also. Most of the ruperts I've come across wouldn't have lasted two minutes in a pressure situation on their own. Books are one thing, but an understanding of how to act and interact with people in the “real” world is far more important. Before all of you with degrees jump on my case, I must emphasise that I speak from personal experience and would not make the mistake of putting everybody with a degree in the same catagory. It's just a case of “speaking” as I find, no offence meant to anyone on here!