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Mary Tudor- The Most Evil Women in History
November 14, 2012
4:06 am
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Anyanka
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It's always bunnies.

November 14, 2012
4:09 am
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Anyanka
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November 14, 2012
4:20 am
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Anyanka
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November 14, 2012
9:48 pm
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Sharon
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Thanks Anyanka. This was interesting.
I have David Loades book on Mary. I have used it for reference, but have not read the entire book.

November 14, 2012
10:15 pm
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DuchessofBrittany
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Thanks for posting, Anyanka. It was an interesting watch. I love Loades’s book on Mary, so it was nice to hear his opinions, too.

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

November 15, 2012
4:26 pm
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Boleyn
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I remember watching this some time ago. I found it very interesting. You can sort of understand the reason to why Mary seemed to appear as mad in the religion state of the things. Her faith had maintained her though all her trails and tribulations just as it had her mother, so therefore she truly believed that her faith was right and everyone elses’s was wrong.. I do feel some sympathy for Mary, but I also feel at times that I want to give her a good shaking until her teeth rattled..Like Henry I think Mary was her own worst enemy and unfotunately she had to live with herself too. Henry would always find a way of blaming someone else for the problems he caused..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 16, 2012
2:42 pm
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Boleyn
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Did anyone else spot the mistake in the first part? Henry had an heir with his 4th wife that’s what the commentater said.. I guess he must know something we don’t that Henry must have had another wife between between Anne and Jane. LOL Joking….

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 17, 2012
4:13 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Did anyone else spot the mistake in the first part? Henry had an heir with his 4th wife that’s what the commentater said.. I guess he must know something we don’t that Henry must have had another wife between between Anne and Jane. LOL Joking….

Yes..there were a few Wat Tyler Fantasy moments happening…

It's always bunnies.

November 21, 2012
8:33 am
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James33
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I think Mary Tudor is long overdue a tv series of her own, where people can see her life from her turbulent upbringing to her reign as Queen, in an un-biased way. She certainly is a fascinating character & whilst i do not view her as one of the most evil women history ( i think it’s personally unfair of the documentary to put her in the same league as say for example Elizabeth Bathroy), but i also don’t view as the tragic heroine that a certain Philippa Gregory tried to portray ( honestly that was just laughable how she portrayed Mary and Elizabeth).

I do wonder with Mary’s reign, if she hadn’t agreed in the end to assist Spain with their war with France- & England coming off so badly for it with the loss of Calais & being plunged into debt, would Mary’s reign be remembered in not such a bad light as it often now is?

Also has anyone here read Anna Whitlock’s book on Mary? I’m certainly thinking about getting it & am interested to hear what people think :)

February 24, 2014
11:11 am
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Boleyn
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I’ve recently read Anna Whitelock’s book about Mary Tulip (Bloody Mary) and I actually was very impressed. Mary Tulip although fictionally described as a bloody tyrant etc, was actually just trying to do her best, or what she perceived as the best for her people and for England. Unfortunately for her she was stuck in somesort of time warp, and refused to move with the times. She wanted the England of her youth and simply refused to except that times had moved on, and would never be the same again. They always say the first step is always the hardest but with Mary Tulip she was far too afraid to even take that first step. Frightened that if she did the ground would fall under her when in reality she would have been ok as there would be many to catch if she fell. Hope that makes sence.
I confess I did see a very different side to Mary Tulip after reading it and I feel very sorry for her for all she wanted was to be loved, but she went the wrong way about getting it. But in another sence she infruiated me because of her stubborn determination to make people love her. She simply couldn’t or wouldn’t see that she was getting people’s backs up. The more she tried to push her will on people the more they pushed back. basically she and the people were at an impossible impasse with each other. Even her loyal Catholic people were fed up with her by the time her reign ended. Killing Cramner and losing Calais were perhaps her biggest mistakes. Cramner was to her the antichrist, but I believe her Catholic subjects could see that by keeping him around it was a way of keeping the Protestants under control. They were prepared to work with her and the Catholic subjects as long as Cramner was around, but once she burned him that was the end for her big time. she lost the love of both Catholic and Protestant subjects. I believe that Philip was very judgemental concerning her behaviour towards Cramner.
Like I’ve mentioned in a previous posting here she was her own worst enemy but at the end of the day it was her who ultimately suffered because of it. Which is why she perhaps killed so many people in a way she was trying to wash away the guilt that she felt. Sounds like she was very like Henry in so many ways as he chopped people up willy nilly in trying to make himself feel better and to wash away the guilt he felt.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 24, 2014
11:48 pm
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Anyanka
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I was talking to some of my distant rellies back in Eire and they were saying that there H8 and ELizabeth were considered to be part of the Evil 4 along with Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange while Mary was considered to be a fair and reasonable ruler.

Intereasing how your ( general) culture and history form your outlook on how historical rulers are percieved.

It's always bunnies.

February 25, 2014
8:01 pm
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Sharon
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My husband is Irish and he agrees with your relatives about the Evil 4. As for me, I’m not overly fond of King George III.

I’ve been thinking about Mary. Don’t get me wrong, I know she had a tough road to hoe for sure, and I feel for her. Her personal life touches my heart, but I do not feel she was capable of being a good queen. It seems to me she came to the throne with the intention of settling old scores. She brought her baggage with her. Although she tried to do her best, some of her actions, well, many of her actions, were not for the good of England. The first thing she did was to claim herself legitimate. Okay, I see her point on that one.
She has Cranmer arrested. She arrests her sister thinking she was plotting against her. Okay, Elizabeth may or may not have been doing that. Mary detested Elizabeth, and she made life miserable for her. The reason for that was she could never forgive Anne Boleyn.
She marries Phillip, knowing and not caring that the people of England despise Spain, and do not want a Spanish leader, whether he be named king or not. God told her to marry him and that is what she would do. Then she starts the burnings. She has Cranmer burned purely out of vengeance. She turns England upside down with her religious beliefs. All very selfish, and spiteful acts. The icing on the cake, she loses Calais.
How does any of this help England and her people? Maybe had she lived longer, things would have improved for her?

I am not trying to be cruel or sarcastic here. I am simply trying to understand her. Elizabeth, I get. Mary I don’t.

February 26, 2014
5:04 pm
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Boleyn
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I think Mary was trying to recapture her youth, when she was the golden child in a golden court, with a golden sod I mean God for a father. Also you have to think that when she signed the document to say that she excepted her father’s rules concerning the church and herself, she signed away everything she believed and called her own mother a whore, as well as declaring herself as a bastard. I think she probably realised at that point that although she blamed Anne for the misery she found herself in when H8 cast off her mother, that in truth it was entirely her fathers doing and that Anne although instumental in H8’s ideas, was not entirely to blame for them. H8 made the decisions to throw away COA and disband the church etc.
I think she had feeling for Elizabeth in some ways she probably felt very sorry for her. If you think about it H8 wanted so desperate for a son, that the hassle he put her and her mother though only for him to have yet another daughter was all just a waste of time and effort. I should imagine that when Mary was told that Anne had had a daughter she was perhaps laughing up her sleeve. She really had no need to be jealous of Elizabeth at that time. If anything she should have been more concerned about Anne’s next pregnacy, fr if Anne had succeeded in producing an Heir she would definetely be replaced. Once Anne was off the scene I her fears about being replaced resurfaced and in this case with J.S she was replaced by Eddy. If she was jealous of anyone it would have been Eddy. Certainly when Eddy came to the throne they had a very volatile relationship with each other. Elizabeth on the other hand simply kept out of it. simply stayed in the background, and let them get on with it. I would say that Elizabeth and Mary’s relationship with each other was a one of a love/hate sort of thing. Elizabeth supported her sister’s right to the throne, and rode with her in triumph through the gates of the city,as well as be with her at her coronation. I doubt that if Mary hated her as is believed she would have allowed her to be anywhere near her but they were together, not a lot I grant you but they did see each other from time to time. I can understand Mary’s jealously of Elizabeth, she was a young woman, beautiful and intelligent and yes the people did love her, whereas Mary was old, and her looks had started to fade, but she was intelligent, but sadly people wanted youth in their lives not an old maid who lived in a different time frame to the rest of England. Mary belonged to the past, a generation that had died a long time ago. She refused to move on from the time of her youth, and that’s when the rot started to set in. They perhaps might have accepted some of er changes concerning the church, such as Saint’s days and religious imagery, if she had been prepared to accept that they had the right to worship how they pleased too, meeting them half way I think is the best way to describe it. When she started to burn people of course that told them it was her way or the hellway so to speak.
Cramner was a marked man the minute he pronouced that COA and H8’s marriage was a dead duck. No matter what he said and did his life had ended the minute he made that declaration. Which is why I don’t understand why he didn’t scarper once he had realised Lady (Queen) Jane’s reign was over, he must have believed Northumberland’s rebellion would actually work.. However if he had ofscarpered I don’t think he would have gotten very far anyway. I mentioned this in another forum page. Cramner had no chance of getting out of England from the time Eddy had died. Because the first thing the Duke would have done is ordered that the ports be closed so no one could enter of leave England. With the country in a pickle the chances of getting to Dover by any means even if he hitched a lift on a wagon, would be slim, for everyone was either joining up with Northumberland’s mob, running off up to Framington to join Mary or just going into hiding anywhere they could find in England. He could have gone into hiding I agree but once Northumberland was defeated if he was in hiding chances are he would have been turned over to one of Mary’s mob anyway. He was a dead man simple as that.

The reason behind her marrying Philip was in a way to atone for calling her mother a whore, she was fiercely proud of her mother and perhaps more so her grandmother the Great Isabella. Isabella must have been a very tough old bird to actually not only take the throne of Castille ut to conquer the Mores (Muslims) and take the Alhambra. So Mary in a way wanted to reclaim her Spanish heritage and do as the Great Isabella did turn a country that was blasphemous and unholy (England) and make it a good Christian country again. Isabella of course turned a Muslim country into a God fearing Christian country. She would have heard all about Isabella via her mother of course. Marrying Philip she hoped would be like Ferdinand and Isabella all over again.
She perhaps started to hate Elizabeth after her marriage with Philip for it was said he preferred Elizabeth over his wife. again being 12 years her senior was perhaps too much for him to stomach especially as she failed to produce a child, if she had the story would be a little different. Elizabeth would have probably been married off to some minor count or duke, whether she wanted to be or not. Philip wanted a young bride, not someone who was nearly old enough to be his own mother. I should imagine Mary’s court would be very staid and boring at times too. Like her mothers before her, which was probably the reason why he stayed away. I also think he could see that by burning people just because they didn’t want to follow the Catholic doctrine as strickly as she did, she was getting on the people’s nerves over it. I think when he realised that she was apsolutely unmovable in her beliefs he just got fed up with her. Her funding of his war with France was a mistake but she was a desperate woman and wanted him with her so by funding his war she hoped he would stay by her side. If he had succeeded in France maybe she would have earned some respect from her people, but I doubt it would have lasted long.
Towards the end of her life I think she mellowed quite a lot towards Elizabeth, maybe she realised that if she had killed Elizabeth, the only possible person who could rule after her was Mary Queen of Scots the child of 2 sworn enemies. I.e Scotland and France, for which she knew the people would never ever forgive her. So she though well if there is to be no child I guess the best option for England is Elizabeth. at least the people love her. To have Scottish and French people roaming around England destroying all that my Father tried to build, and killing my people, Elizabeth although a heretic was the lesser of 2 evils. She didn’t know of course that the throne would go to Jimbo Mary’s son, but she perhaps thought that although Elizabeth had said she will never marry that when push came to shove she would have to marry and have at least one child, the Tudor line and all that her father believed would then live on though that child. It has but not in the way he had perhaps believed it would.
I think if Mary had lived just a little longer she could well have succeed in putting England back as it once was in the days of her youth. But I still think that we would be as we are today and we would still have the Queen we have now.
Little titbit I believe Christina of Denmark who was at one time considered as a suitable bride for H8 was Philip’s mistress.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

February 28, 2014
4:42 pm
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Barnettbuff
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It seems that in many of the posts here, one topic is repeatedly ignored in explaining the ifs, buts, and whys, concerning the actions taken by members of the Royal Families, and their closest allies; — from many of the historical fiction writers, the underlying reasons for most of their decisions and actions were their beliefs concerning “god”. Many writers continually point to their characters looking for explanations for, and the desires of, their “god” and his control over their daily decisions in life. I feel the idea concerning the ‘god’ of the middle ages was very different than the one held today. Also, probably the Royal household held different ideas concerning his wants and desires for his subjects, than those held by the peasantry. Royal succession was always upper most in all thoughts of all royalty, especially old ‘Lard Arse”. (Aren’t you proud of me, Lorna? Wink) Therefore, the desires and wishes of their ‘god’ had to weigh heavily upon them at all times. Their methods used in attempting to ‘satisfy’ those heavenly dictates many times seems so brutal and insane in our modern-day world; perhaps to them, their decisions were totally reasonable and ‘acceptable to god.’
Do we not believe that in most cases, individuals holding the crown or other high offices, truly felt that their positions were appointed by god and they were responsible for carrying out the dictates of that god to the best of their human ability? (No matter how unreasonable their actions and decisions may seem to us)

March 8, 2014
12:07 am
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Boleyn
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Another off the latch moment here, so sharpen the points on your Iron Maiden Anyanka, bring out the Stocks Sharon, and grease up the Duke of Exeter’s daughter Olga.Laugh

I wonder if some of Mary’s “madness” is somehow partly due to the bitter resentment and hatred (loosely worded) she felt towards the English people. If you think about apart from a few trusted English ladies and gentleman (who perhaps stuck by her when she was being the rough end of the cactus) she tried to surround herself with as many Spaniards as possible she promoted Spain as much as she could, married a Spanish husband. Maybe her rage and the burning of the people was her way of exacting revenge on those who had betrayed her. She was an outcast after Lard arse kicked her mother out of the court, she was tormented by her father’s vindictive nature, Anne was cruel to her, Jane although she was freindly with her and tried to make Lard Arse see reason concerning his treatment of Mary she was promptly told to shut her trap or risk losing her head, so in a way Jane let her down, she went back to being a person of no real importance. A.O.C she did get on with, perhaps because like herself A.O.C was an outcast. Mary relationship with K.H was a bit of a mixed bag. We know that they did have a falling out of sorts, but it was soon forgotten, but I think Mary may have felt a little out of sorts about having a stepmother who was only just a little younger than herself. With K.P she did perhaps manage to come out of her shell a little but perhaps didn’t always get on with due to K.P’s religious views, but she was perhaps grateful that at least K.P had managed to do what Jane had tried to do, and that to see to it that she got a shot at the crown. But she may have also resented the fact that although she was next in line after Eddy, K.P failed to persuade Lard arse to once again declare as legitimate.
Whenever she went anyway although she was cheered, Elizabeth got a lot more cheers than she did. The English people it seemed to her perhaps prefered the daughter of an English whore, than the legally begotten daughter of Royal blood.
When Eddy died, there were people who didn’t want her as Queen so Lady Jane Grey was put forward. A nknown English girl of English royal blood to sit on the throne. Of course we all know what happened there. But what if Jane (Queen) had been well known and liked in court? I think that perhaps people would have been happy to accept her, as she was English, and married to and Englishman, and whats more was highly likely to produce heirs.
So again the English were telling her to “Piddle off” becuase she was half Spanish, and likely (I think it was obvious from the moment she took the throne she would marry a Spainard or at least someone who was extremely pally pally with Spain)
The Wyatt rebellion was a form of betrayal. In her the English people had betrayed and abused her from the time Laughing Lard Arse had told K.O.A
to go do one.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 8, 2014
4:37 am
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Anyanka
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TBH, Boleyn…I can’t think of a single Spanish servant that Mary employed once Henry was dead. I’m almost certain Henry kept any-one way from Mary who would/could have encouraged her into any kind of formal arrangement with the Spanish/Hapsburgs royals. Those ladies who had attended KoA and remained in England had married and the daughter of at least one of them was an ardent reformer.

I know Mary relied on Chapyus and his succesors for thier advice and abortive plans to escape fronm an England which was heading into rampant hereasy from Mary’s perspective.

Most of her closse attendants as queen were those who had been with her through her troubled teens and twenties anmd thirties…Like many women of high rank in those days, places in her household were eagerly sought by social climbers as well as those who followed the Catholic faith that Mary espoused. Young maids like Jane Dormer, later Duchess of Feria and Anne Bassett, step daughter of Arthur Plantegant, uncle of Henry VIII were part of her household for many years before finally marrying and leaving court.

It's always bunnies.

March 8, 2014
11:58 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka.
I suppose what I should have said aside from the Catholic faith of things, those whoespcially in the case of Jane Dormer, were into the Spanish way of life. I know that Mary was fond of Margeret Pole, again an ardent Catholic. I believe there were rumours, the Mary and Reggy Pole were going to marry, and the Pope would have been perfectly happy to release him from the Church in order to marry Mary. I can’t say if these rumours are true or not. but a marriage between them wouldn’t have been a bad idea, and at least that way Mary’s hubby would have been English. Mary’s rot set in when she insisted on re-introducing forgien powers and ways of life into England, when Lard Arse had spent years sweeping them out.
I do feel that at first when Lard Arse got his broom out and started sweeping away the cobwebs of forgien policy etc, the people were naturally afraid of what the future would bring, without the smells and bells of the Catholic faith. If you think about it, for hundreds of years the people were told “if you turn against God and the Pope you will be struck down where you stand and go to hell” but once Henry started sweeping it dawned on the people “well where are the bolts of lightening that we were told would strike us down if we threw our Rosery’s away, burned the Holy books etc?” It made the people see religion in a new light. Things in England seems far more rosy after the dust had settled from Lard Arse’s sweeping. The people may not have liked some of Lard Arse’s policies, but they saw that what he was doing for was for their benefit ultimetely.
In short Lard Arse did help England to grow up, the rest of the world saw England and Lard Arse as a child, scared of the dark, and easily dominated and bullied by the rest of the known world, if that makes sence. But Lard Arse realised (after reading Tindale) that the rest of the world were basically laughing at how weak and pathetic England actually was, in short they were extracting the urine. So Lard Arse’s dignity and pride were affronted and he basically decided the only way to beat a bully is to show them up, and show them that the little cowardly boy they thought he was was a damn sight better and stronger than them. Lard Arse bascially told not just the Pope but the rest of the world we don’t need you we are better off without you, go bully someone else cause I’m not your puppet/play thing or whipping boy anymore.
Once the people realised the freedoms (loosely worded) that Lard Arse had given them by taking them and England out of what was going on in Europe they too saw the benefits of what he was doing, they were happy enough to except what was happening.
When Mary Tulip came to throne, she wanted to drag England and it’s people back into what would in affect be slavery with Rome, forgien rulers dictating what they can and can’t do? No way that ain’t going to happen. so naturally they rose up in defence against her, if she had steered the middle line of religion and forgien policy and limited her involvement with forgien matters, sticking solely to trade and export matters, just as Lard Arse had done, she may have been more popular.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 11, 2014
5:56 pm
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Sharon
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I think Mary at first was preferred over Jane because she was King Henry’s daughter. The memory which the people had of Henry was of a strong and good king. They thought his daughter would be a good queen. To the English people Jane was virtually an unknown. It was easier than she thought it would be for Mary to move her aside. The court blinked and folded. Mary appealed to the people to make her stand, and they stood up for her.

I don’t think Mary’s resentment would have extended to the English people. She wouldn’t have seen it that way. She would have considered them her subjects, who needed to be saved by the return of Catholicism. She told Parliament that it was her choice to marry Philip and she would do that no matter what they or the people thought. She expected these two matters to be accepted by all the people. Unfortunately, they were not accepted and Mary was unable to gain the control Henry and Elizabeth both held over the people.

When Mary became queen, one of her chief advisors was the Spanish Ambassador, Simon Renaud. This man almost succeeded in convincing Mary to kill Elizabeth. Before that I don’t think there were too many Spanish people left to her.

March 12, 2014
1:14 pm
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Boleyn
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I agree Sharon The people would rather have a daughter of Lard Arse’s blood than a grand niece. If there were no other closer heirs, then Jane might have been accepted.

I do feel that she had a certain amount of resentment towards the people, but purely from the point of view that their stubborn determination not to do as she wanted. Ie happily trot back to Rome. She just didn’t understand why the people didn’t want her Catholic faith and the Pope. IMO she tried to bully her people into submission.
I agree Renaud did very nearly succeed in his plan to kill Elizabeth but I also feel that Mary herself realised that if she had executed her, she would have a full scale rebellion on her hands too. Elizabeth was as strange as this sounds was Mary’s safety blanket against full scale rebellion.

I do also feel that Mary did have some sentimental sort of feeling for Elizabeth, although Mary hated Anne with a passion I don’t think that hatred ran to Elizabeth, she may not of trusted her, and I believe she made a comment about Elizabeth paternity. Something along the lines of “Yes Mark Smeaton was a very handsome man.” But I think she knew deep down that there was no doubt to who was Elizabeth’s father, as Elizabeth certainly inherited Lard Arse’s spark, and Mary perhaps recognised the jovial, easy going and loving father she knew in her youth.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

March 12, 2014
2:09 pm
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Anyanka
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I beleive that Mary was close to Elizabeth when she was a small child but once it became obvious that Elizabeth was following the Reformers rather than the CAtholic faith that their relationship started to cool. After rejecting the offer to join Mary’s household once KP married Thomas Seymour I think that was the final nail in thier easy going family connection.

It's always bunnies.

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