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The tern 'British'- will it last?
December 7, 2012
6:36 pm
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James33
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Hi guys, i thought after reading a particular article and discussing it with a few people that what better place to discuss then here, especailly since it is to do with history and is a big thing for the UK right now.

This article was really interesting a while and it has got me thinking about the term ‘British’ and what it means to us here in the UK.

Basically it was all about Scotland and the upcoming Independence vote in 2014, i have been taking a really keen interest in this ( although i must admit i do not feel it’s for me to say how Scotland should decide on whether to stay or leave the Union), the article itself was by a Scottish writer for the Huffington post- i could tell that he was trying to be slightly impartial, although you could clearly tell he was very much in favor of Scotland going Independent ( and i had a sneaky look at his Twitter which confirmed it ).

According to him whatever Scotland votes for in 2014 the Union as we currently know is finished- even those in the Scottish Parliament wishing for Scotland to remain in the Union are calling for more powers to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament ( and David Cameron pretty much confirmed that that would happen if Scotland votes no in 2014), so the term British is apparently going to be redundant.

I also noticed that many Scottish Olympians had to confirm whether they felt Scottish or British- leading to Sir Chris Hoy and Andy Murray quite angrily stating that they felt they could say both- the term ‘Scolympians’ was even derived by some nationalists. But what surprises me is how people respond to this, the venomous patriotism that comes from some Scottish and English people over the whole thing, comments below articles can be horrific, some Scottish nationalists will say how every ‘true Scotsman will vote yes in 2014’ then some angry English person will reply with something pretty unpleasant.

What is ‘British’ when we think about it? I mean do members here from the UK describe themselves as British? Or Scottish? English? Welsh? Should this whole independence debate be centered on patriotism?

The article in question was also stating how eventually more powers would be devolved to the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assembly’s- now don’t want to turn into a raving nationalist here, but isn’t it about time England had their own parliament? I’ve been looking up and reading quite a bit about the current status and set up of the Union lately and it does seem that England doesn’t come of as well in the grand scheme of things, but maybe we need to wait and see how Scotland vote before we get that.

None of the MP’s want to address this issue- Ed Miliband quickly squashed any talk of an English parliament in an interview, saying that all he was getting is a feeling of ‘Britishness’- now obviously he doesn’t want the Union to break up so you could say he has an agenda for saying that- but i don’t hear many Scots or Welsh saying there ‘British’.

Do you think that the term ‘British’ is coming to an end? If you live in the UK do you identify yourself as British, Scottish, Welsh or English?

Really interested to hear peoples opinions here- i apologise as it is slightly political and i really hope my comments don’t offend anyone living in Scotland or Wales,

December 7, 2012
9:27 pm
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Louise
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I’ve always thought of myself as English rather than British. I have Welsh friends who hate being thought of as British; they are Welsh first and foremost, yet when Engish people feel the same they are accused of being racist.

December 7, 2012
10:36 pm
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Sharon
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Well as one of the Americans here I can “freely” say that I am all for Scotland’s independence. Being from America, and quite biased in my opinion of independence for all, I don’t belive a country should belong to another country. That’s my personal opinion. I certainly don’t want to offend anyone here. I love all of you.
I’m married to an Irishman, and if anyone wants to see his temper, just ask him about Northern Ireland being English and protestant. It’s a really, touchy subject, and his family has been here since the early 1800’s. I’m sure Northern Irish have strong patriotic feelings for England. I have a sister in law who couldn’t find her name on our Irish map of Irish names. My husband tells her it is because she is English…she gets a little upset with him sometimes. Smile He has burst her bubble and now she won’t talk about Ireland with him at all. Part of my family is from Czechoslovakia. I remember my Grandmother and Grandfather crying tears of joy when the country they had been born in won independence in 1968. So I can understand Scotland wanting to once again be their own country. Scotland was independent for hundreds of years before England came, and many families were devastated by their coming. A few times. Personal/family history is as important to them as it is to the English.
I have read the history of Scotland, Wales, Ireland and of course, England. I love the history of these countries. From my American viewpoint, when I read Scots, Welsh, and Irish history, England comes off quite poorly. Again no offense meant. Keep in mind I am looking at this as a person whose country fought a war and won its independence from England. Wink
As to the Brits, and British Isles, well that is a conundrum, isn’t it? When I think of Brits, I think of England. Not Scotland, and Wales is iffy. I can see where it would be a patriotic subject for the people of England. I see the dilemma and I am curious as to what other Brits here think about this.

December 7, 2012
11:50 pm
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Anyanka
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Since the land area is called Great Britian…every-one born there is British. The name ofof the country is the United Kingdom of Great Briain and Northern Ireland. So you CAN be both British and Scottish on the same way that you can be American and a Texan.

Britain is a geological entity not a political one.

It's always bunnies.

December 7, 2012
11:56 pm
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James33
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That’s a very interesting point Sharon, thank you for sharing :) . Although i don’t think that any country really belongs to another in the union- certainly not now anyway. I think for the Scottish what upsets them in many ways is how a lot of people abroad see Britain as just England and i think that’s a sore spot for them and quite understandably so, i do agree that Scotland and Wales certainly where not really treated very well at certain points in the past by English, but if you look at the current set up of the union, it’s England really that comes of worse out of all- a poll was taken recently and found that more English people wanted Scotland to go independent then Scottish- now anything could change in two years so i am certainly not saying that independence will be rejected in 2014- in fact i don’t think it’s for me to comment personally, i think it comes from how English people aren’t to happy with how some Scottish MSP’s getting a say in matters concerning England when English MP’s can’t have a say in matters concerning Scotland.

I do completely agree Louise, i think a lot of English people are quite ashamed of our past, which is strange in a way as it’s certainly not our fault in what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago! Any showing of Patriotism is quickly deemed racist for example BNP, EDL etc- although thankfully events such as the Diamond Jubilee and the Olympics washed any of that talk away ( for the time being at least).

When you look at the map of the union politically we are very divided, Scotland has pretty much completely rejected the Tory vote and embraced the SNP, whilst England and Wales are still voting Tory/Labour/ Lib-Dem… Perhaps a union of Crowns that existed even before the union was officially formed, and as Alex Salmond seems to be very keen on, would work much better.

To be fair Sharon the American independence war with Britain did include Scotland and Wales as the union was officially formed by that point :p

December 8, 2012
1:23 am
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Anyanka
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James33 said
I think for the Scottish what upsets them in many ways is how a lot of people abroad see Britain as just England and i think that’s a sore spot for them and quite understandably so, i do agree that Scotland and Wales certainly where not really treated very well at certain points in the past by English, but if you look at the current set up of the union, it’s England really that comes of worse out of all- a poll was taken recently and found that more English people wanted Scotland to go independent then Scottish- now anything could change in two years so i am certainly not saying that independence will be rejected in 2014- in fact i don’t think it’s for me to comment personally, i think it comes from how English people aren’t to happy with how some Scottish MSP’s getting a say in matters concerning England when English MP’s can’t have a say in matters concerning Scotland.

yeah..well the oil’s running out in the North Sea now..Wink

You can argue about whether Scottish mps should or shouldn’t have a voice in the British Parliment but that’s a hold-over from the Act of Union in the early 18th centuary before the Germans started ruling..Laugh

eta..The English did and still have a lot of influence over how Scotland’s affairs are run since amongst other things the Scottish army units can be called up to fight, how Scotland handles it’s foreign affairs etc and there’s a lot more English mps than Scottish ones.

I get really fustrated when I hear about the Queen of England on this side of the pond. And it’s not onl;y the Americans..it’s the Canadians as well.. They really should know better since part of the citizenship test deals with the Queen being head of state and having to swear an oath to the Queen and her heirs and successors..

It's always bunnies.

December 8, 2012
1:39 am
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Anyanka
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James33 said

I do completely agree Louise, i think a lot of English people are quite ashamed of our past, which is strange in a way as it’s certainly not our fault in what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago! Any showing of Patriotism is quickly deemed racist for example BNP, EDL etc- although thankfully events such as the Diamond Jubilee and the Olympics washed any of that talk away ( for the time being at least).

As an ex-pat Brit , there is a heck of a lot of racism in all parts of the UK..I see it in parts of my family..don’t like the blacks, Pakis, Poles, Iytays Frogs Krauts..etc.. when the London riots were on last year..my half-Irish nephews were gonna go and “help out our countrymen”..from whom and against whom they never specified.

Mind you, they want any-one who doesn’t have both parents or 3 out of 4 grand-parents born IN England to be British and the rest to leave..

I can’t get their logic. Since their mother and I have a Welsh GM, an Irish GF , a GF of Scottish descent and a Cockney GM. and thier father was born in Eire..I’m guessing they will not be in the vanguard of returners to the Land of thier Fathers..

It's always bunnies.

December 8, 2012
9:28 am
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Louise
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I’m not ashamed of being English and I’m not ashamed of our past. I’m proud to be English, as I am being British. I think we have an extraordinary past and much to be proud of. But if Scotland seeks independence, or Wales come to that, then that’s fine provided my taxes aren’t used to bail them out if it goes tits up! I agree that people should be entitled to independence if that’s what they want, but they also need to accept the consequencies.

December 9, 2012
12:02 am
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Gill
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Louise said

I’m not ashamed of being English and I’m not ashamed of our past. I’m proud to be English, as I am being British. I think we have an extraordinary past and much to be proud of. But if Scotland seeks independence, or Wales come to that, then that’s fine provided my taxes aren’t used to bail them out if it goes tits up! I agree that people should be entitled to independence if that’s what they want, but they also need to accept the consequencies.

As an ex-pat English I agree with Louise 100%. If they want independence let them go, but they need to accept that it will BE independence and not expect England to bail them out if it goes pear shaped. My Welsh DH on the other hand is adamant the union should stay together. Wink

December 9, 2012
3:55 pm
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Boleyn
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Gill said

Louise said

I’m not ashamed of being English and I’m not ashamed of our past. I’m proud to be English, as I am being British. I think we have an extraordinary past and much to be proud of. But if Scotland seeks independence, or Wales come to that, then that’s fine provided my taxes aren’t used to bail them out if it goes tits up! I agree that people should be entitled to independence if that’s what they want, but they also need to accept the consequencies.

As an ex-pat English I agree with Louise 100%. If they want independence let them go, but they need to accept that it will BE independence and not expect England to bail them out if it goes pear shaped. My Welsh DH on the other hand is adamant the union should stay together. Wink

Yep I agree with you there. If Scotland want independence then they have that right, but they can’t expect to have their porridge and eat it then expect us to provide them with more porridge, because they gorged themselves stupid. If they find themselves in a hole the answer is they should stop digging and work out how they can fill in the hole and rebuild their own country and not expect us to solve their problems.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 9, 2012
5:17 pm
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James33
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Boleyn said

Gill said

Louise said

I’m not ashamed of being English and I’m not ashamed of our past. I’m proud to be English, as I am being British. I think we have an extraordinary past and much to be proud of. But if Scotland seeks independence, or Wales come to that, then that’s fine provided my taxes aren’t used to bail them out if it goes tits up! I agree that people should be entitled to independence if that’s what they want, but they also need to accept the consequencies.

As an ex-pat English I agree with Louise 100%. If they want independence let them go, but they need to accept that it will BE independence and not expect England to bail them out if it goes pear shaped. My Welsh DH on the other hand is adamant the union should stay together. Wink

Yep I agree with you there. If Scotland want independence then they have that right, but they can’t expect to have their porridge and eat it then expect us to provide them with more porridge, because they gorged themselves stupid. If they find themselves in a hole the answer is they should stop digging and work out how they can fill in the hole and rebuild their own country and not expect us to solve their problems.

I think you guys raise very interesting points here, absolutely Scotland has every right to independence if that’s what they wish, the polls at the moment aren’t showing a great interested in complete independence- but anything could happen n two years…

Right now there are far too many ‘what ifs’ over the whole matter, the yes campaign really need to start being straight with people over what independence will mean, everything right down to whether the Scottish will need there own passport- that might sound silly but these things could really harm there campaign, whilst at the same time the ‘no’ campaign needs to stop scare mongering people into voting against independence… It is interesting though that the SNP have decided they want to keep the Queen as head of state- not all want it mind you, but it does seem to be an agreement among some of the yes lead campaigners now! Of course there’s every chance that even with a no majority in 2014 Scotland will get further devolution with more powers past to Holyrood anyway.

December 9, 2012
5:33 pm
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James33
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Anyanka said

James33 said
I think for the Scottish what upsets them in many ways is how a lot of people abroad see Britain as just England and i think that’s a sore spot for them and quite understandably so, i do agree that Scotland and Wales certainly where not really treated very well at certain points in the past by English, but if you look at the current set up of the union, it’s England really that comes of worse out of all- a poll was taken recently and found that more English people wanted Scotland to go independent then Scottish- now anything could change in two years so i am certainly not saying that independence will be rejected in 2014- in fact i don’t think it’s for me to comment personally, i think it comes from how English people aren’t to happy with how some Scottish MSP’s getting a say in matters concerning England when English MP’s can’t have a say in matters concerning Scotland.

yeah..well the oil’s running out in the North Sea now..Wink

You can argue about whether Scottish mps should or shouldn’t have a voice in the British Parliment but that’s a hold-over from the Act of Union in the early 18th centuary before the Germans started ruling..Laugh

eta..The English did and still have a lot of influence over how Scotland’s affairs are run since amongst other things the Scottish army units can be called up to fight, how Scotland handles it’s foreign affairs etc and there’s a lot more English mps than Scottish ones.

I get really fustrated when I hear about the Queen of England on this side of the pond. And it’s not onl;y the Americans..it’s the Canadians as well.. They really should know better since part of the citizenship test deals with the Queen being head of state and having to swear an oath to the Queen and her heirs and successors..

To be fair i’m not saying they shouldn’t have a voice in the British parliament, just that their should be an English parliament for English MP’s as well, just like there’s a Scottish one, and Welsh and Northern Irish Assembly’s, i think each country should have a say in matters that concern only them :)

As for the saying ‘The Queen in England’ saying- even i get frustrated by that :D , it is very annoying- in fairness to Canadians, isn’t the Queens title over there simply ‘Queen Elizabeth The Queen of Canada’? Or something like that? The same as other Commonwealth countries.

That’s a shame about your nephews- it did get really bad last year after the riots though, i was pretty ashamed by some people’s attitudes here, but luckily i think this year with the Jubilee and the Olympics i think peoples attitudes are a lot more positive now and i have noticed a lot less racism :)

December 10, 2012
2:20 am
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Gill
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Anyanka said

As an ex-pat Brit , there is a heck of a lot of racism in all parts of the UK..I see it in parts of my family..don’t like the blacks, Pakis, Poles, Iytays Frogs Krauts..etc.. when the London riots were on last year..my half-Irish nephews were gonna go and “help out our countrymen”..from whom and against whom they never specified.

That’s very true, but to be fair there is a lot of racism on all sides, I’ve worked with black people and asian people who were just as racist as some whites – black people who hated ‘pakis’ and whites, and moslems who hate Indians, etc etc. I’m really not sure how we can get people to just accept other people

December 10, 2012
11:30 am
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Boleyn
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Gill said

Anyanka said

As an ex-pat Brit , there is a heck of a lot of racism in all parts of the UK..I see it in parts of my family..don’t like the blacks, Pakis, Poles, Iytays Frogs Krauts..etc.. when the London riots were on last year..my half-Irish nephews were gonna go and “help out our countrymen”..from whom and against whom they never specified.

That’s very true, but to be fair there is a lot of racism on all sides, I’ve worked with black people and asian people who were just as racist as some whites – black people who hated ‘pakis’ and whites, and moslems who hate Indians, etc etc. I’m really not sure how we can get people to just accept other people

The truth is Gill we can’t. Wherever we go and whatever we do there will always be problems. I don’t see race or colour as a problem, I really could care if a person is Black, White, Green, Orange, Blue or Red, neither do I have any problems with whatever religion or way or life they choose to follow. What I do have a problem with however is that, when someone tries to force their beliefs down my throat or threatens my very existence, because I don’t follow their creedo. Most of us would love to have an utopian sociaty, but sadly I don’t think that will ever happen.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 10, 2012
5:53 pm
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Sharon
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Anyanka said

Since the land area is called Great Britian…every-one born there is British. The name ofof the country is the United Kingdom of Great Briain and Northern Ireland. So you CAN be both British and Scottish on the same way that you can be American and a Texan.

Britain is a geological entity not a political one.

Now there is an analogy. Texas has a petition to secede from the Union and personally, I think they should be allowed to leave. Wink

December 10, 2012
6:00 pm
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Sharon
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James33 said

To be fair Sharon the American independence war with Britain did include Scotland and Wales as the union was officially formed by that point :p

I don’t know if that is fair. Would Scotland and Wales have been able to tell England that they didn’t want to fight a war with America? Confused

December 10, 2012
9:34 pm
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Louise
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Sharon said

James33 said

To be fair Sharon the American independence war with Britain did include Scotland and Wales as the union was officially formed by that point :p

I don’t know if that is fair. Would Scotland and Wales have been able to tell England that they didn’t want to fight a war with America? Confused

England, Scotland and Wales fought two World Wars shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy. I suppose with the American War of Independence it depended on each individual’s views at that time. I suspect a number of English people weren’t particularly keen on a war. It was, from a British perspective, a war for sovereignty and power rather than freedom, and the man in the street fights for freedom, not power.

December 11, 2012
7:22 am
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Boleyn
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Boleyn said

Gill said

Anyanka said

As an ex-pat Brit , there is a heck of a lot of racism in all parts of the UK..I see it in parts of my family..don’t like the blacks, Pakis, Poles, Iytays Frogs Krauts..etc.. when the London riots were on last year..my half-Irish nephews were gonna go and “help out our countrymen”..from whom and against whom they never specified.

That’s very true, but to be fair there is a lot of racism on all sides, I’ve worked with black people and asian people who were just as racist as some whites – black people who hated ‘pakis’ and whites, and moslems who hate Indians, etc etc. I’m really not sure how we can get people to just accept other people

The truth is Gill we can’t. Wherever we go and whatever we do there will always be problems. I don’t see race or colour as a problem, I really could care if a person is Black, White, Green, Orange, Blue or Red, neither do I have any problems with whatever religion or way or life they choose to follow. What I do have a problem with however is that, when someone tries to force their beliefs down my throat or threatens my very existence, because I don’t follow their creedo. Most of us would love to have an utopian sociaty, but sadly I don’t think that will ever happen.

I meant. I really couldn’t care if a person is >>>>>>>>>> Darn rubber fingers and non existant brain.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

December 12, 2012
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James33
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Louise said

Sharon said

James33 said

To be fair Sharon the American independence war with Britain did include Scotland and Wales as the union was officially formed by that point :p

I don’t know if that is fair. Would Scotland and Wales have been able to tell England that they didn’t want to fight a war with America? Confused

England, Scotland and Wales fought two World Wars shoulder to shoulder against a common enemy. I suppose with the American War of Independence it depended on each individual’s views at that time. I suspect a number of English people weren’t particularly keen on a war. It was, from a British perspective, a war for sovereignty and power rather than freedom, and the man in the street fights for freedom, not power.

I think Louise you have summed up brilliantly what i failed to get across :) and i’m there where probably a fair few in England who may have sympathised with America during there war.

At the moment at least, Britain is a political entity in a way- at least while we have a parliament that stand for all four countries ( Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England), unlike Scandinavia where all countries have there own parliaments and sovereignty.

I say whatever Scotland chooses in 2014 is right for them :) , but i do think that if they choose no to independence the if Westminster does consider devolving more powers to Holyrood, then they should also consider devolving more powers to the Welsh and Northern Ireland assembly’s as well as devolving some powers to an English parliament to- as that is only fair i believe there was an interesting suggestion i read on another forum somewhere, where someone suggested devolving more powers to Holyrood, establish the Welsh and Northern Ireland assembly’s as parliaments, turn the house of commons into an English parliament and change the house of lords into a parliament for matters concerning all four countries- not sure in reality if that would ever work, but it did sound like an interesting way of keeping all four countries satisfied.

July 21, 2013
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HEIDI*BULLEN
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Louise said

I’m not ashamed of being English and I’m not ashamed of our past. I’m proud to be English, as I am being British. I think we have an extraordinary past and much to be proud of. But if Scotland seeks independence, or Wales come to that, then that’s fine provided my taxes aren’t used to bail them out if it goes tits up! I agree that people should be entitled to independence if that’s what they want, but they also need to accept the consequencies.

Agree with the above. All for going alone in your own country and all the best genuinely, but don’t go complaining if the independance goes wrong. You need your own personality and self identity back, without fear of other governments in merged countries to you, saying how their allies should run.

What happened between our countries in the past, should not be used in todays decision. At the time back then, thats how it was and ran. We learn from them and move on, not to be used as an excuse of our countries behaviour today towards each other.

I wish Scotland the best and wales and Northern Ireland to if it comes to that in the future. Right now, i’m proud of you all being part of Britain as i am of being English. It would be a sad time, if you move away completely and not stay friends and allies. Just like friendships in general, the countries have their bad, terrible and much of the good times together. Wink

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