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The Princes in the Tower
October 6, 2013
3:26 pm
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Steve Callaghan
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Boleyn said
I have to ask why Stilington waited till Edward was dead before opening his mouth too.

It does all seem a little ‘convenient’…a bit like Henry 8th’s selective reading of Leviticus (in a way).

October 6, 2013
9:46 pm
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Bob the Builder
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SteveJ said

Boleyn said
I have to ask why Stilington waited till Edward was dead before opening his mouth too.

It does all seem a little ‘convenient’…a bit like Henry 8th’s selective reading of Leviticus (in a way).

i’d go for ‘life saving’ rather than purely convenient.

lets remember that Edward IV executed his own brother, and his two closest friends/family (Richard and John Neville) were killed in battle against him. Stillington, unless he had a death wish, is somewhat unlikely to have thought that starting a conversation with Edward IV that contained the phrase, ‘so, about your marriage being a sham and your heirs being illegitimate…’ would have been a good idea and would have lead to a long life in the open air.

the only, imv, potentially ‘iffy’ thing about the pre-contract allegtion is that Stillington felt able to approach Richard after Edwards death – that, imv, suggests that it was understood, or guessed, at court that Richard wasn’t wildly keen on a moarchy dominated by Woodvilles, and might look at alternative arrangements if they presented themselves. that does not, imv, however mean that the allegation is untrue, just that it was convenient.

those of us in the UK will remember Gordon Brown’s faux pas during the 2010 general election – he left a mike on and started ranting off about some labour voter he’d just met and talked to. no other political part was responsible for setting it up, but it was very convenient for everyone except Gordon Brown and Labour. some wounds are self-inflicted…

October 7, 2013
11:39 am
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Boleyn
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I wonder if Edward did go a form of marriage with Eleanor Butler. A morganic marriage.
In the context of royalty, a morganatic marriage is a marriage between people of unequal social rank, which prevents the passage of the husband’s titles and privileges to the wife and any children born of the marriage. Now rare, it is also known as a left-handed marriage because in the wedding ceremony the groom traditionally held his bride’s right hand with his left hand instead of his right.

Generally, this is a marriage between a man of high birth (such as from a reigning, deposed or mediatised dynasty) and a woman of lesser status (such as a daughter of a low-ranked noble family or a commoner). Usually, neither the bride nor any children of the marriage has a claim on the bridegroom’s succession rights, titles, precedence, or entailed property. The children are considered legitimate for all other purposes and the prohibition against bigamy applies. It is also theoretically possible for a woman to marry a man of lower rank morganatically.

In which case E.W and Edward’s marriage was legal, There are rumours that Eleanor did have a child by Edward, but I can’t say if this is true or not, but supposing it was it would mean that, that child would be the next in line, not Richard. If true there was a child what happened to him/her? That taking of course if Eleanor’s marriage to Edward was a true one to start with.
I’m inclined to think it was a morganic marriage rather than a true marriage.
E.W married Edward in 1464. Eleanor was possibly in the convent by then so again the marriage between E.W and Edward was legal right from the word go.
Stillington’s “confession” I think was just trying to gain power for himself. I can understand Richard’s view about the Woodville’s domination of the Boy King that was a big no no, and he Richard had grown up with the knowledge of boy kings Henry 6th was still a babe in arms when he came to the throne, and all his life he was told what to do and how to do it, not to mention being dominated by his French Harpy of a wife, so Richard certainly didn’t want that to happen again.
Personally I feel Richard has been slammed and villified as a murderer, usurper etc very unfairly. He was just trying to do what was best for England at the time. Although the York dynasty was firmly on the throne now, a boy King at this time would be a mistake. The wars of the Roses had cost England a lot of money, and England needed to rebuild it’s treasury etc. How could a boy king do that?
England needed a strong sword arm at the helm, not a child, who would little more than a puppet, with little or no voice of his own.
Richard was in my opinion the best man for that job at that time. As for the boys murderer? Gut reaction tells me that the Duke of Buckingham was responsible, whether he did it off his own back or on the orders of someone else I don’t know.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 7, 2013
5:05 pm
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Bob the Builder
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Boleyn said
… A morganic marriage….

i think this is actually the least likely possibility – a morganatic marriage isn’t a secret marraige. it requires lawyers, and it involves a contract, and apart from the morganitic bit, is no different to a standard wedding with a big dress and endless relatives crawling out of the woodwork.

a secret marriage, one where two lovers plight their troth to each other to secure their love against ‘them’ – and where the groom can get his end away – is far easier for three people to keep a secret.

a morgantic mrriage between Edward IV and Lady Eleanor Talbot would have to have involved her family – the Earl of Shrewsbury, who also happens to be a Neville, and at the least, government or family lawyers. Eleanor Talbot was a relation of Edwards, she was a close relation of his mothers, and of his greatest supporters, the Neville brothers, John and Richard.

there is, apart from it being a dirty trick to get into her knickers, no reason why Edward to keep a marriage with Eleanor Talbot secret.

(i’ve used Talbot instead of Butler because she was a daughter of Talbots, and her suitability or otherwise to marry Edward comes from he parents, not her husband().

October 8, 2013
11:01 am
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Boleyn
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Thank you Bob

Is it just possible that Eleanor’s father agreed to letting a morganic marriage take place? Edward had pooled his lot with the Neville’s and what better way to secure that tie, than through marriage in whatever form? Edward knew that if he became King he would need to marry legally some princess or other, so he couldn’t marry Eleanor in the fullest sence of the word (for a start off a marriage between a commoner and a King or any nobility was considered a big no no. It was viewed I believe as disgusting) so a morganic marriage IMO opinion does seem likely here.
Does anyone know of the date that Eleanor entered the convent? and what happened to her alledged child?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 16, 2013
9:39 am
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AnnaKarenina
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The problem I have with the whole pre-contract issue is that they, quite conveniently, used a dead woman who could neither confirm or deny the allegations. Also, her family did not support the claim. If there had been a pre-contract I just don’t believe that she and her family would sit by while the Woodville family enjoyed the spoils of monarchy if they believed that was rightfully Elenore’s position. My personal belief is that RIII created this to add legitimacy to his claim. I don’t believe the Bishop had a guilty conscience, I think he was likely bribed to “remember”.

Question for Boleyn: I’m curious what led you to believe JT was involved? I could be mistaken but aren’t HVII’s whereabouts rather well documented in the summer of 1483? If I recall correctly both Edward IV and RIII wanted to get their hands on HVII and JT and I think it would have been incredibly dangerous for him to have set foot in England, let alone attempt to sneak into the tower and kill the rightful King and his brother. I’m not sure he would have risked it. But perhaps I don’t have the full story. I honestly don’t know a lot about JT, but I did think that he was with HVII during the weeks leading up to the Buckingham rebellion, but I could be wrong!

I think it’s very difficult for us to view the murderers of 2 young boys as anything less than a monster through our modern sensibilities. RIII makes it more difficult because he certainly did some good things, and even showed more mercy than was prudent in some cases. He was lenient with Margaret Beaufort, for one. Some of his actions do not fit the mold of a monster. On the other hand, some do. The fact that he executed Lord Hastings immediately following his arrest on ridiculous charges is what really tips the scales for me. Those are the actions of a usurper, as are the murders of 2 boys, and the “discovery” of the pre-contract to a dead woman whose family didn’t believe it to be true. While I don’t buy the whole Tudor portrait of RIII, I do think there is enough verifiable information of his actions immediately following the death of EIV to surmise that he is the guilty party. Also, if he weren’t I believe he would have gone to great lengths to prove it. Ditto if the boys had died of natural causes. They showed HVI to the people after his death, I think he would have done the same if illness had befallen the boys.

Hope I didn’t offend anyone! I thoroughly enjoy reading the opinions of others and finding out what lies behind those opinions!

October 16, 2013
11:23 am
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Bob the Builder
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AnnaKarenina said
Also, if he weren’t I believe he would have gone to great lengths to prove it. Ditto if the boys had died of natural causes. They showed HVI to the people after his death, I think he would have done the same if illness had befallen the boys….

i’ll say first off that, to me, little about the dissaperance of the two princes makes much in the way of logical sense regardless of who is to blame…

with regards to this bodies however, i think RIII could be something of a victim of timing or happenstance – if we accept that he had them killed with the intention of blaming some illness for their deaths, it could be that either the bodies were damaged in a way that meant that nobody who saw the bodies would believe they died of plague or whatever, or that public speculation on their whereabouts meant that nobody in Richards circle believed that the public would swallow the idea that they fell foul of some malady, regardless of how unmarked the bodies were.

it could be that they did die of natural causes, but that the rampant suspicion about Richards actions meant that publicly admitting to their deaths would have been politically disasterous, or indeed it could be that some underling had a ‘who will rid me of this turbulent preist..?’ moment and did Richard a ‘favour’ that Richard couldn’t punish, but couldn’t admit to either.

the accepted story of the two princes being killed in late summer 1483 and secretly buried by Richard makes no real sense from Richards point of view, or from the Tudors, or from Buckinghams. much as i think that conspiracy theories are for the hard of thinking, i’m very much coming to the view that our understanding of the events of 1483 (regardless of whether we blame or exonorate Richard..) is very seriously flawed – its like we’re missing the middle bit of the political jigsaw, so not disimilar to trying to understand the changes to the Labour Party between 1983 and 1997 while being unaware of the existance of Margeret Thatcher…

October 16, 2013
12:50 pm
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Boleyn
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Anna. The reason I suspected J.T was to do with the fact he had a lot to gain from their deaths, and of course that he could have got into the tower and done the deed as Margaret’s husband had the keys to the tower and could have smuggled him in to do the deed and smuggle him back out again. However I do agree that the chances of this working would have been very slim. so I think we can cross J.T off the list.
I believe Edward 1V was in talks with the Duke of Brittany? to extradite Henry and J.T back to England to face trial, but died before he could rubber stamp the deal.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

October 16, 2013
1:41 pm
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Bob the Builder
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i personally think that the likelyhood of Tudor involvement in the deaths, assumming they happened in 1483, is miniscule – firstly, in 1483, the Tudors are nobodies: Richard is heathly, is 31 or so, he has a young wife and a legitimate son, he has a nephew, John de la Pole, who is in in early twenties, and Earl of Lincoln, and even after the death of the two princes, Henry Tudor is about 25th in line to the throne – as well as the fact that he’s virtually peniless, in exile, and having problems finding a safe place to live with Edward IV and Richard III’s ’embassies’ on the prowl looking for him.

in that situation, who is going to stick their neck out for an impoverished nobody with no battle experience living on the other side of the channel with only marginally more claim to the throne than the woman who cleans all the muck out of the stables?

even then, why was Richard never openly accused by the Tudors in their invasions of 1483 and 1485 of killing the princes – obvious smear tactic, yet never done, why? indeed if the Tudors were involved in the deaths (and we’re talking about the use of agents and allies, not JT swimming the channel and shinning up the Towers drainpies with a dagger between his teeth..), why were they never able to produce the bodies post-1485 when they were plagued by pretenders claimning to be the princes?

this, for me, is the clincher: Henry VII could really, really have done with the bodies both to denegrate RIII after his usurpation in 1485, and to prove that the pretenders who seriously destabilised the crown between 1487 and 1499 were not who they claimed. that he did not produce the bodies tells me that he, and Jasper Tudor, Margeret Beaufort and the Stanleys, did not know where they were – which is a pretty good indication that they didn’t do it.

October 16, 2013
4:31 pm
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Bob I agree that we are certainly missing a valuable piece of the puzzle. However, for me at least, I find enough evidence based on RIII’s actions to convince me, mostly, of his guilt, or at least complicity, in the matter. The part that I will never understand is what would have compelled EW to give up her other son to him. I do think it it possible that EV died of natural causes, and at that point RIII knows he will be blamed so there is more to gain from getting rid of Richard, than from keeping him, especially if there was negligence on RIII’s part. Perhaps Richard could verify unflattering things about RIII. In any case I do think it interesting that NO ONE claimed to be EV, which to my mind means the was no chance he survived.

I agree that The Tudors would likely have shown the bodies if they knew where they were. Since Thomas More knew where they were eventually discovered perhaps they even looked for them and couldn’t find them, hence the theory that they were moved after burial. That RIII didn’t show the bodies indicates to me that either they were done by violence, or at least one of them was, or that perhaps one of the bodies was missing, although i admit that the biggest reason this theory hods water is my inability to understand what force on earth could separate EW from her son while they are all fearful for their lives in sanctuary.

Unfortunately we will never know until the Queen allows DNA testing of the remains, which I doubt will ever happen. I do have a question regarding the remains discovered in EIV and EW’s tomb: we’re those remains not thought to be the remains of their children who died young? A 14 year old girl and a 2-3 year old boy? Or am I mistaken?

October 16, 2013
5:35 pm
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Bob the Builder
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AnnaKarenina said …I do have a question regarding the remains discovered in EIV and EW’s tomb: we’re those remains not thought to be the remains of their children who died young? A 14 year old girl and a 2-3 year old boy? Or am I mistaken?

my understanding – with all the caveats that implies – is that the records (church records, bills for funerals and burials etc..) have long told us that George Plantaganet and Mary Plantaganet were both buried in the Wolsey/Lady Chapel at Windsor and that coffins with those names enscribed were found in the Wolsey/Lady Chapel and then moved to the Edward IV/EW tomb in St Georges Chapel in 1813. thats great, the problem is that some 20 years previously work had been done on the EIV/EW tomb and two coffins, marked as George Plantgenet and Mary Plantaganet were found within that tomb – so there are four coffins of what should be two children, all in the EIV/EW tomb. nobody, apparently, thought this was odd…

however, the word of caution is that, to my knowledge, not only were the coffins not opened at the time, so no one knows who (ish) was inside them, but that uptil very recently, we have been very slap-dash about the physical traces of history, and recording the physical traces of history. it quite possible that the ‘four’ coffins are infact two coffins, but that the 1790 dig couldn’t even be bothered to record correctly which chapel they were working in.

this would not be unknown…

i know that in the 1990’s work was done on the Edward IV tomb and that considertion was given to addressing this anomaly, however it came to nothing, and i’m not even sure if they were able to confirm whether there were the four coffins in the tomb, let alone what was in the coffins…

October 16, 2013
10:59 pm
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AnnaKarenina
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Thank you Bob, this offers some clarity to the situation.

October 17, 2013
1:10 pm
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Boleyn
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The trouble is that over the years bodies have been shifted all over the place in Westminster Abbey, if memory serves Charles 1st’s coffin was found purely by accident so to speak, when whoever it was messing about in the Abbey was looking for James 1st body. Charles the poor sod as if beheading was enough for him was laid to rest with face ache (H.8)
Even the Great Elizabeth isn’t buried in the tomb that she was originally put in, her body was shifted in 1612, to lie with her sister Mary, so that James could bury his mother in Elizabeth’s original tomb. James 1st’s body by the way was found in with (H.7)
The Princes may well have been buried with their parents originally, but got shifted when the tomb was opened in 1790, to where? well that’s the mystery. These 2 missing coffins could be anywhere within the Abbey, it’s a big place. Wherever they were placed it wouldn’t have been too far from E.1V and E.W tomb.. I’m taking a wild stab here but were they perhaps reinterred in H8’s chapel?.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 17, 2013
8:27 am
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Jasmine
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Boleyn said

The so called pretenders to the throne is an intersting and long debated subject, and I think it will always be a mystery too, Much the same as who actually killed the Princes in the tower. I don’t think it’s possible tha Perkin or Lambert were of Royal blood, as Thomas More gave in depth detail to how the Princes died and to where their bodies were buried, and consquently found..

Thomas More was not writing history but a private document more like a morality story. He invented so-called conversations and his descriptions of where the princes were buried are often used to ‘prove’ the bones found in 1674 are those of the boys, when in fact More goes on to say that the bodies were dug up again from beneath the pile of stones, near a staircase, and reburied somewhere else but he didn’t know where.

That last part is always conveniently forgotten when the subject of the bones in the urn are discussed. There is absolutely no evidence that these are the bones of the boys.

Only very recently, some bones have been found very close to the Tower which it seems is located next to or on top of a Roman cemetery – so it is not impossible that the bones belong to that period and not the Medieval period at all.

If you think about it, the Tower was a busy place – a royal palace, a HQ for troops, filled with servants and officers – not the best place to ‘secretly’ bury two bodies, 10 feet down under a stone staircase, without anyone noticing.

After H7 won at Bosworth, why didn’t ‘someone’ come forward to tell all about the ‘secret’ burial? Why didn’t H7 institute a huge search for his missing brothers-in-law? Why didn’t H7 ever directly accuse Richard of killing them?

Why did no one ever claim to be Edward V, but always Richard of Shrewsbury?

There are so many questions and so few answers!

November 17, 2013
10:40 am
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Boleyn
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Exactly Jasmine.. There is no way in my opinion that the boys could have been buried that far down without some one noticing and especially since it was at the bottom of a used staircase. Plus 10 feet is a lot to dig out and where was the soil put from the hole (unless they dug another hole and put the soil down that one LOL) Even by todays standards a 10 foot hole would still take probably 2 days, given the modern equiptment. With a few shovels and men working in shifts to dig a hole that deep would most likely take months in those days. The tower was a thriving community on it’s own so anyone doing anything in the least bit dodgy would be asked what they are doing.. Personally I don’t think the Skeletons unearthed all those years ago are the boys. I think they are 2 boys that happened to be in the exact spot where more they said they would be, but from a much earlier period in time, and subsequently when the Tower was improved or rebuilt they just became part of the legend. They may even be from when the Saxon’s had a Mott and Bailey castle where the Tower now stands.
There were reports that Young Eddy wasn’t a well bunny during his time in the Tower and that the doctor, had to attend and give him some vile concoction to help him (I shudder to think what might have been in it) But here’s another possibilty for you? What if the Doctor inadvertely poisoned both boys? If he did have to attend them if they had gone down with some ague, he would have given them a concoction. Medicine was still being played with then, and the affects of some medicines weren’t fully understood. I believe Hemlock, and mandrake were quite commonly used in medicines, so what if whatever else was mixed with the base of these medicines somehow reacted with whatever else was put in there and bingo 2 dead boys…. I have mentioned before about the possiblity of a idea on where the boys were buried (loosely worded) The Tower people would have been iin deep mucky stuff if the boys had been found dead, and there could be a possibility that heads and hemipheres would roll big time. so to get rid of the bodies a bit sharpish would be a lot better. I.e chuck them in the moat, job done, and no one gets chopped up.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 17, 2013
10:51 am
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Jasmine
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Yes, Boleyn, that much excavation would have required the hole to have been shored up, otherwise the diggers would have risked it collapsing on them! Thus they would have needed a lot of wooden planks – not an easy pile to hide, along with the soil as you mentioned.

The story that Edward was ill/sickly is one which came out of nowhere and gained credence when it was stated that the jaw of the older skeleton in the urn had a jaw disease. The only contemporary record is that Dr Argentine is reported to have said the older boy was in fear and prayed for deliverance – so he is talking about a state of mind rather than an illness.

I used to think H7 did away with them, but after reading a lot more, I have changed my mind. I believe that neither Richard nor Henry knew what happened to them. I also believe that EW was convinced that Richard had not done away with them because she allowed her daughters out of sanctuary and wrote to her other son, Dorset, to come home and make friends with the king. That’s a difficult thing to swallow if she knew her sons were dead and Richard killed them. She could have remained with her daughters in sanctuary – Richard would never have violated it, but she didn’t.

My earlier question stands – why did pretenders claim to be Richard of Shrewsbury and never Edward V?

November 17, 2013
2:46 pm
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Boleyn
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Good Question Jasmine, perhaps it was easier to impersonate Richard of Shrewsbury more easily that Edward V. Edward was heir apparant and as such would not have spent a lot of time in London, so very little was known about him, his likes and dislikes etc. Plus he would have his own intimate circle of servants etc, and many of them were still about at the time H7 claimed the throne, they would have known Young Eddy straight away.
Like you I did at first blame R3 for the boy’s deaths, amazing what a bit of Shakespearean properganda can do to the old psychy? (Bad spelling) But either way for hundreds of years R3 was held responsible. Now I’ve come to know R3 better, basically that hypothosis is crap… R3 had nothing to do with the boy’s deaths, he was held to blame purely because he was dead and therfore unable to defend himself against the allegations made against him. H7 was seen as a conquering Hero who floated into England like superman, and killed the evil child murdering villian and rescued the damsel in distress, again all properganda. Henry believed his right to the throne was legitimate and went for it simple as that. He got lucky at Bosworth, for I believe if Lord Stanley had declared for R3 it would have been H7 bones unearthed recently.. Also looking at it that way and that H7 died at Bosworth he would have been seen as a evil child murdering villian, etc…
The only thing R3 is guilty of is taking the throne from little Eddy, but IMO I can see his reasons to why, it had nothing to do with the boy’s legitmacy, it was to do purely with the fact that both boys were children, and TWOTR started because of H6 being a child and being governed by inappoipiate council. Children do not make good rulers, and at that time, given that England was still in a pickle over a few things a child on the throne, would be a disaster for England. It needed a strong York hand on the rudder of the Ship called England, not a boy who was still playing at being a soldier. R3 was simply the best man for that job.
I didn’t know about the jaw disease, interesting theory for sure, and yes I agree Eddy praying for deliverance because of fear does seem to suggest that he was afraid of what was going to happen to him now that he was no longer King, he would have no doubt been told that H6 was supposedly bopped on the head to get rid of him, when H6 was finally turfed off the throne. The very name of the Tower struck fear even to the most strong willed men and woman, which was exactly what William the conqueror intended to do when he built the place.. Subsequent Kings added to it, the most audaious King to add to it was H3 known as Henry the Builder. So with each new building Project the fear of the people for the place increased, so naturally I should imagine little Eddy was running short on underwear the longer he stayed there (In short he was weeing himself in fright)
I don’t know why I think this at all but I just guess it’s a gut reaction, but I strongly believe that the Duke of Buckingham was responsible for the boy’s deaths. again it’s the old Propaganda bit, stir up trouble for R3, Henry Tulip comes over from Brittany, the 2 armies meet at Bosworth and Buckingham sits back and lets them kill each other and then at the last moment jumps in stabs either R3 or Henry Tulip to death and takes the throne for himself. Just a mad idea of mine, not to be taken as sacrosanct.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

November 18, 2013
9:08 am
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Olga
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Jasmine said
My earlier question stands – why did pretenders claim to be Richard of Shrewsbury and never Edward V?

For logics sake you could argue he disappeared when he was very young and would not have been easy to recognise, but I prefer to think that people had heard a murmur he did escape the Tower. There was enough people ready to believe it.

I still lean towards Baldwin’s theory that he lived out at Eastwell as Richard Plantagenet. Did I tell you guys they are looking for him? There was an article earlier in the year about the St Mary’s Church owners (a charity now) and a local politician from Eastwell were keen for them to start looking for Richard Plantagenet now that they have the York family DNA. I emailed him last month for an update and he told me that they’re trying to uncover any documents that would help with a location of his burial, but that if they do that the Richard III team (although he didn’t clarify of that was Leicester or the R3 society) would be interested in a dig. Although the church owner said there are at least 2000 people buried there.

Of course if they did discover him they could only prove he was of York descent and he may have been an illegitimate son as he claimed. And I think they’re looking at him as an illegitimate son of Richard’s. How could they prove he was Richard of Shrewsbury?

November 18, 2013
9:17 am
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Jasmine
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The only way to prove the body at Eastwell (supposing that they find it and it has Richard’s Plantagenet DNA) is Richard of Shrewsbury is to find the female DNA he inherited from EW. If he has both, then he is Richard of Shrewsbury.

I have heard another theory – as Richard of Eastwell knew latin, some think he may have been a monk who had been thrown out of his monastery after the Reformation.

November 18, 2013
10:37 am
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Bob the Builder
Ludlow
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i’m more than a little unconvinced by this – firstly because i do not believe that in Tudor England someone living quietly but calling themselves ‘Plantaganet’ would have been politely ignored by the local authorities, and secondly because, apart from when they were being executed, the children of the Yorkists were well treated by the Tudors – we know that Henry VII made a grant to Katherine, daughter of Richard III, and we know that Arthur Plantaganet, Lord Lisle, a ‘natural born’ son of Edward IV was a senior courtier at the Tudor court for more than 40 years until our fat, ginger, paranoid friend chopped his head off.

if we’re talking about this Richard Plantaganet being a bastard son of Richard III we face one rather large problem – that Richard III recognised his illegitimate children and had them live within his houshold, and that after his death Henry VII treated them reasonably well and recognised them as children of a King. there is therefore no logical pathway as to how one of his children would end up as a bricklayer in Kent but living openly as his son.

if we’re talking about this Richard Plantaganet being Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York and legitimate son of Edward IV, then we have another problem – does anyone here really believe that despite the general good treatment of the Plantaganet children by the Tudors, Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York and legitimate son and heir of Edward IV would have been allowed to live openly as such and away from court?

the defining characteristic of the treatment of the Yorkist children by the Tudor governments is that there were kept close, whether at court or in prison – they were not given a resettlement course and told to make their own way in the world.

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