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Brain may live on after decapitation
July 28, 2011
5:59 pm
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Anyanka
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http://www.livescience.com/152…..ation.html

 

One of Alison Wier`s books talks about some experiments in France with guillotined victims and a car crash victim ( sorry I tided up earlier and can`t give a cite ATM)

 

If you are easily upset, you may not want to read.Animal experiments mentioned in first link.

It's always bunnies.

July 28, 2011
7:57 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Wow, a full minute? Doesn't mean a minute of consciousness, though; although I do believe decapitation victims might have between 5-20 seconds of awareness, based on reports of lips and eyes moving in what the witnesses thought was a purposeful, rather than spasmodic way. And I've read that report in the second link before about the guillotined man who opened his eyes several times when his name was called. The Charlotte Corday anecdote was new to me.

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

July 28, 2011
11:52 pm
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Elliemarianna
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You can hold your breath for a long time without any horrible effects, or passing out. My friend (out of morbid curiosity) watched one of the Taliban beheading videos – supposedly the guy was concious for a LONG time. She said he looked as if he were trying to talk and kept looking around as if he were confused. I don't think there would be any pain however – at least I hope not – as the nervous system would be damaged and you would be in shock.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

July 29, 2011
1:52 am
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Catalina
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I remember reading something (cant remember where) that there is a theory that after a beheading, there is a level of awareness for a time and the person is capable of feeling pain. I really hope not, how horrific.

'If honour were profitable, everybody would be honourable'  Thomas More

July 29, 2011
12:15 pm
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Bella44
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I think Alison Weir mentioned decapitations effects in Lady in the Tower  and how a level of consciousness can still be retained for up to a minute afterwards.  I hope Anne didn't suffer too much  Frown

July 29, 2011
1:00 pm
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Elliemarianna
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I don't think the pain would last long, as the shock would set in within a few seconds. People who loose limbs report a dull ache and throbbing, some don't even realise its gone.

The nervous system would be so damaged in a decapitation I doubt pain would be severe, or lasting, even if the victim is concious for some time.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

August 1, 2011
1:09 am
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Sophie1536
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I've never really thought about any of this I must admit but now what I find scary is if Anne wasn't dead and somehow subconscious when they put her in that disgusting arrow chest, the thought is terrifying.

I would imagine though the utter shock to the system would completely knock your senses of any kind out but we'll never know will we.

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August 1, 2011
12:13 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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I don't think she would have been conscious that long, Sophie. Disgustingly, there are accounts (Lady Jane Grey, too) that her body lay on the scaffold for several hours while they hunted around for something to put her in. Jane was left on the scaffold while they got permission from Mary to bury a Protestant in the now (again) Catholic Chapel. It was Catholic until Henry made it COE, then Mary made it Catholic again, then Elizabeth made it COE again.

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

August 1, 2011
2:13 pm
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Wendy
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The brain dies when it is starved of oxygen. As blood carries oxygen to the brain, as soon as the blood drained out it would start to die (quickly I hope!). The sudden drop in blood pressure might be enough to make a person 'faint' before the brain actually died.  I hope that was true in Anne's case. 

As for the reports of people looking round or looking confused after losing their head, they are probably thinking “why can I still see when I'm supposed to be dead?”  🙂

August 11, 2011
5:42 am
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E
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Yes- “Oh, I thought there was an afterlife…”

"A fresh young damsel, who could trip and go"

August 25, 2011
2:02 pm
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WilesWales
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I wondered for years what they said about Anne's eyelashes blinkiing and mouth moving from I've read here and there from a few mintues to 20 (the same with Mary Queen of Scots), I was reading this book, “The Seven Mysteries of Life: An Exploration in Science and Philosophy, ” by Guy Murchie and on page 521 it reads, “…when a human head is chopped off there is evidence that the head is capable of consciousnes for at least several seconds more and it will almost surely feel itself hit the ground. Charlotte Corday's head is reported to have suddenly looked very annoyed a few seconds after she was guillotined at hte age of twenty-five during the French Revolution.”

I later learned that Corday had just been slapped across the face when the guillotine hit. But the brain generally has oxygen left in it even after the heart stops. This is where the ideas of brain death and hearth death first got into such debates years ago.

Just another tidbit for your next cocktail party! Wink

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 26, 2011
2:17 am
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Sophie1536
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This sounds like something out of a horror movie Surprised 

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August 26, 2011
11:48 am
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WilesWales
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I was really replying to Wendy's message, and should have said so. Please forgive me, it was only a short passage, and I thought it might shed light on the Anne and Mary Queen of Scots legends that have been written both at the time and since then. You're right though, it does sound like a horror movie after reading it again, but I think it's still a much better death (and for Anne, bless her heart, the punishment for a woman at that time who committed adultery was burning at the stake of which Anne was extremely afraid and begged Cramner to speak to the King), than burning at the stake. Beheading and burning were the punishments in England at that time. People considered them like we do perhaps concerts or the fair. So I also believe Anne was most courageous in her speech on the scaffold, and showed her class, and thus Elizabeth's, and restraint at such a most horrifying moment for her. This even after a swordsman was hired from Calais (which Mary I or Bloody Mary lost during her five year reign and it being the last English hold on the continent).

Anne, in her speech, also never admitted her guilt. I have to admire her as she in that she died the innocent woman that she was.

In addition, I've always wonder what her confession was to Cramner, but I suppose we'll never know.

Thank you!Wink

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 26, 2011
11:48 am
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WilesWales
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I was really replying to Wendy's message, and should have said so. Please forgive me, it was only a short passage, and I thought it might shed light on the Anne and Mary Queen of Scots legends that have been written both at the time and since then. You're right though, it does sound like a horror movie after reading it again, but I think it's still a much better death (and for Anne, bless her heart, the punishment for a woman at that time who committed adultery was burning at the stake of which Anne was extremely afraid and begged Cramner to speak to the King), than burning at the stake. Beheading and burning were the punishments in England at that time. People considered them like we do perhaps concerts or the fair. So I also believe Anne was most courageous in her speech on the scaffold, and showed her class, and thus Elizabeth's, and restraint at such a most horrifying moment for her. This even after a swordsman was hired from Calais (which Mary I or Bloody Mary lost during her five year reign and it being the last English hold on the continent).

Anne, in her speech, also never admitted her guilt. I have to admire her as she in that she died the innocent woman that she was.

In addition, I've always wonder what her confession was to Cramner, but I suppose we'll never know.

Thank you!Wink

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 27, 2011
10:00 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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I thought we knew what her confession to Cranmer was – didn't she ask Sir Kingston to stay and listen? And then she gave him permission to make her confession public. Going strictly by memory here (I know – yikes!), I thought that she swore to her innocence both before and after receiving the Host at Holy Communion. She swore on her immortal soul, which basically means “If I'm lying, let me burn in Hell forever.” For her to swear that just before her death makes me believe her. Well, that and lack of evidence against her combined with lots of exculpatory evidence to prove most of the charges false!

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

August 28, 2011
10:53 am
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WilesWales
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Now that I think about it Sir Kingston was allowed in during her confession. I suppose I've never really looked that hard for it (maybe on British History Online), but not ever in any of the biographies (I've only read one anti-Anne biography and it made me furious) about her I've read. If you have any suggestions, PLEASE pass them on. That's most likely how I missed it, and thank you for pointing this out. I'll definitely now put it on my list of things to research. The rest of what you say is very true, and that's why I believe (and a couple of term papers in college) in her innocence as well. Thank you, again! Laugh

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

August 28, 2011
1:25 pm
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Mya Elise
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Impish_Impulse said:

I thought we knew what her confession to Cranmer was – didn't she ask Sir Kingston to stay and listen? And then she gave him permission to make her confession public. Going strictly by memory here (I know – yikes!), I thought that she swore to her innocence both before and after receiving the Host at Holy Communion. She swore on her immortal soul, which basically means “If I'm lying, let me burn in Hell forever.” For her to swear that just before her death makes me believe her. Well, that and lack of evidence against her combined with lots of exculpatory evidence to prove most of the charges false!

Yeah i thought that too. I read somewhere about her swearing on her immortal soul .

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

August 28, 2011
7:45 pm
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Anyanka
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I thought we knew what her confession to Cranmer was – didn’t she ask Sir Kingston to stay and listen? And then she gave him permission to make her confession public. Going strictly by memory here (I know – yikes!), I thought that she swore to her innocence both before and after receiving the Host at Holy Communion. She swore on her immortal soul, which basically means “If I’m lying, let me burn in Hell forever.” For her to swear that just before her death makes me believe her. Well, that and lack of evidence against her combined with lots of exculpatory evidence to prove most of the charges false!

 

Logic again….and proof…you’ll never make the grade as a PG style historian…Laugh

It's always bunnies.

August 29, 2011
9:53 am
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Sharon
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I don't think we know what passed between Cramner and Anne.  Cramner was with her on the 16th.  It seems to have been a private meeting.  Cramner returned to Lambeth.

Anne was closeted with her almoner the night of the 17th.  The confession in which Kingston was called to witness took place on Thursday, the 18th, at mass, the day Anne thought she was to die.  She swore her innocence before and after receiving the sacrament.

August 29, 2011
10:37 am
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WilesWales
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Sharon answered my question, and mix up as well. Thank you. I knew that Cramner and Anne had a private confession, and I thought I remembered reading about it (now vindicated), and that Cramner was pretty tired after it. That's the confession that I would certainly have like to have read, but, alas, as said previously, I suppose we'll never know!

I aslo agree with Anyanka that “Proof…PG will never be an historian.

Thank both of you! WilesWalesLaugh

"This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." Psalms 118:23

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