Was Henry an accursed king? | Henry VIII | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Was Henry an accursed king?
October 4, 2010
2:07 pm
Avatar
Lexy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 71
Member Since:
October 11, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well I don’t know if you have heard of the legendary templar’s curse on Philip the Fair’s family, but while reading a book on it i suddenly realized that Henry was the English King who was the most related to Philip the Fair, by his both parents ( Henry VII through Katherine of Valois and Elizabeth of York through Isabella the She-Wolf). Add to this that Henry’s acts had similarities with his ancestor’s: stealing the Church’s wealth, attacking the Pope, promoting national religion, killing men of real faith… Personnally I don’t believe in curses and all that stuff, but I had been born at those times, I would have found this explaination more believable than Elizabeth Barton’s manifestations of madness. What about you? Do you find this theory believable ( I don’t ask you to believe in curses, just to do as if)

October 11, 2010
3:30 pm
Avatar
ipaud
Ireland
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 212
Member Since:
June 19, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Lexy,

I would be as you with curses and give a scant regard to chain mails and SMS.

Henry VIII had a bad run of luck, if we are to look at him with eyes and attitudes of the time. Maybe curses only work if the intended recipient believes in it?  the amount of superstition around then was immense,  one just has to look at the burning of witches and the reasons given to substantiate the charges. Did Henry buy into this superstitious attitude? His reform of the church, to my mind, shows that he wanted to move away from these attitudes? Ho was devoutly religious and well educated by Erasmus, who himself was very forward thinking in the need of reform of the Roman Church. On the other hand, Henry’s “Great Matter” depended on superstition for its success? Henry was if nothing else a people user and manipulator and he used this to great success.

The madness of King Henry VIII?  In his last years, he was irrational and abusive, we have talked before about the attitude changes after his jousting accident in January 1536, that left him in a coma for hours. He went from “much loved king” to “unreasonable tyrant” at that time almost over night. Henry ate too much and drank too much from then on, but wrote his Bible and reformed his church and country beyond recognition. Perhaps more manic than mad? I was talking with a friend recently about Henry, I said that I can detest him and admire him at the same time. Take the sex and romance out of Henry’s story and try to look at what he did, the good and the bad.He does arouse such negative passion in people today,regardless, he achieved so much of what he set out to do, and by any means, Henry is such an enigma.

If it was not this, then it would be something else?

October 11, 2010
11:05 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lexy, I had this big long post and the server ate it – grr – so, I’ll try to recap what I was saying (and I’ll copy it before I hit save, too!)

About the Templar’s curse – I thought it was just directed at Philip IV and the Pope at the time, Clement V. In 1314, they had been responsible for having the last Master of the Templars, Jacques de Molay, burned at the stake. They had colluded in an effort to thwart the organization’s religious and political power (and to help themselves to its riches) by accusing the members of the order of heresy and perversion and executing them. Jacques de Molay was actually the godfather of Philip’s daughter, Isabella. Allegedly from the flames, de Molay cursed Philip and Clement; saying that he would summon them both before God’s Tribunal within the year to answer for their crimes. And both men were dead before the year was out.

Was there more to the curse? If so, since Isabella was his goddaughter and had nothing to do with her father’s actions, would the curse extend to her descendants? Just curious.

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 12, 2010
9:54 am
Avatar
Lexy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 71
Member Since:
October 11, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In fact, Carolyn, the Master of the Tempalrs cursed Philip the Fair, Pope Clement and Guillaume de Noguaret, Philip’s henchman, “until the thirteenth generation of your races” ( litteral translation). In those days, when you acted against God, all your blood had to pay, even if it was in your children’s veins. Philip’s sons are considered as victims of the curse, since they had unhappy lives, died young and had no male heirs. The book that made me think of Henry states that cousins were also involved, and that coincidntally Louis XVI belonged to the “thriteenth generation of Philip’s race”. I don’t believe in curses, but I found interesting to notice the parallels between Philip the Fair and Henry,w ho both acted against the Pope and the Church’s wealth and suffer from rumors of being cursed ( Henry compared with Achab when the dog licked what came from the broken coffin). Would make a nice Halloween article!

October 13, 2010
11:02 pm
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Cool! I hadn’t heard the rest of it. And it is kinda eerie that the 13th generation was the ill-fated Louis XVI, too!

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 14, 2010
9:11 am
Avatar
Lexy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 71
Member Since:
October 11, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Indeed! I found it quite spooky too when I read it. Actually, similarities between Henry and Philip and his sons are numerous: Louis X le Hutin ( the quarel-maker) had his first wife murdered and declared their daughter a bastard because of adultery, married a fair princess and died, leaving an heir whose reign didn’t last, for exemple.Makes you remember people?

October 14, 2010
11:49 am
Avatar
Impish_Impulse
US Midwest
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 595
Member Since:
August 12, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Things that make you go, “Hmm…”

                        survivor ribbon                             

               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

October 14, 2010
3:11 pm
Avatar
Lexy
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 71
Member Since:
October 11, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Troubling coincidences, indeed! 🙂

October 17, 2010
5:39 pm
Avatar
Boleynfan
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 503
Member Since:
August 2, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Wow, I just read all the posts right now and I have to say, I’m creeped out! 🙂

Halloween is here, everyone…

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2337

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2115

Bella44: 933

DuchessofBrittany: 846

Mya Elise: 781

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 427580

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1711

Posts: 23074

Newest Members:

FloydArect, walwera, jffrsnfrst, Bearustault, KdyyaVzacype, loveawake.ru

Administrators: Claire: 959