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The perfect marriage, or not?
May 24, 2012
4:12 pm
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Mya Elise
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I’m currently watching season 2 of ‘The Tudors’ for the 100th time and in the 1st episode of the season there’s a scene where Henry is talking to Charles and Henry says something about desiring the perfect marriage or wanting a happy marriage and a question popped in my head.
Even if Henry got the “perfect” wife and had a son and everything was happy and la de da, do you think he really would of been happy with it? I don’t think Henry was really capable of really settling down and what not. He always wanted more or wanted something new, he was never satisfied.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

May 24, 2012
7:22 pm
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Boleyn
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Henry basically was a sniverling brat. So I agree that Henry could never settle down and be happy with what he’d got,like most brats he wanted it all and when he’d got it he hadn’t got a clue to why he wanted it, and yet he still wanted more. As he was COA the longest where marriages are concerned I rather think that his ideal marriage would be like the one he had with COA, A woman subserviant to his every command and yet put up with his affairs, but even so I still think he liked woman with spirit too, which is perhaps part of the attraction he had for Anne, she was a very spirited filly, and of course his aim was to rule her as he had COA.
Of course Anne could read him like a book and had his measure before he even blew his nose in her direction, and because she was made of tougher stuff than his previous conquests he had no choice but to hunt her down.
I think for a while he was happy with Anne but because f his nature he was bound to start his falandering again and of course that got right up Anne’s bugle (another word for getting on your nerves) I can kind of understand her point here, as she was really only Queen because Henry had said so, so she was completely dependant on him to keep her safe etc. If she had died of the sweat, which I’m given to believe she very nearly did, would Henry have taken back COA? stopped the destruction of the Churches? and do penance for doubting the word of the Pope when it came to trying to divorse COA? That’s a tough one to answer, but to be honest I think not I still think he would have carried on with what he was doing and perhaps had married one of the French Princesses after all. After Elizabeth birth, although Henry forgave Anne for producing a girl instead of the long wanted boy, I don’t think he entirely forgave her for Elizabeth birth, and of course that prayed on his mind, in the sence that in hs eyes God had condemned to being childless because he married his dead brothers widow, but now God had condemned because he was married to the sister of one of his misstresses, although Mary and Henry’s dalliance was over way before Anne and Henry met. Being childless in Henry’s eyes met that they had no son, girls were really seen as comodities, and to be used as bargaining tools with other countries. Obvisiously Henry’s paranoia grew after Anne miscarried the first child not long after Elizabeth’s birth, and then it really reached fever pitch, when 1 Anne miscarried again and the baby was indentifyable as a boy, But was it a boy? or were Henry’s physicians told to tell Lard arse it was a boy to increase Henry’s paranoia to a point where he could be manipulated, to destroy Anne. Anne had a lot of enemies and they would do and say anything if it got Anne into trouble.
2 Henry’s fall I believe this did something to his brain, possibly to the point of having a blood clot on his brain. It would have explained the headaches he had. That fall of course was perhaps the start of the slippery slide downhill to Anne’s downfall and death..
When Henry married Jane I think he liked the family life Jane had given him, but I also think in time he would have got fed up with Jane as she was very like COA in someways and I don’t think he would have liked to live with someone who reminded him so much of the wife he choose to forget.
AOC, well he just couldn’t stand her, but it does seem funny that they became very freindly and affiable with each other, perhaps it’s because she had the good sence to take what she was being offered as a divorce settlement and run like hell.
K.H, well she perhaps give him back the spark of his youth, but of course Lard Bucket’s spirit was willing, but his body wasn’t and I think that he was quite frustrated with not just his inanbilitiy to get K.H pregnant but also because he hadn’t got the strength and energy to keep up with his young and vivacious wife, so perhaps that was the reason why he went off the deep end and made such a large splash when he found out about K.H’s wanton behaviour.
With K.P He did I think find a sort of contentment, but I rather think by the time he married K.P he was just in too much pain , to care about much else, and K.P having been married to 2 men who were elderly perhaps knew how to treat Lard Arse, and his temper tantrums. I do think that of all the wives I think K.P was perhaps as close to a perfect wife as Lard Arse’s imagination could grasp. She certainly managed to bring a sort of wobbly truse between Lard Arse and his children.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 24, 2012
8:38 pm
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Sharon
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Henry had quite a few perfect marriages had he bothered to notice. He ruined them all. If he married the first time and had his sons and everything was great, I still doubt this would have been enough for Henry. He was always looking for something else. Something more. Other than always wanting the opposite of what he had, I don’t think he knew exactly what he was looking for. Some people are never satisfied with what they have. The grass is always greener on the other side. That was Henry.

May 24, 2012
8:58 pm
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Louise
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I love ‘what if’s’. If Catherine had a son then Henry would have been blown out of the water with the whole Leviticus argument, so no divorce and no Anne. Henry would have been stuck with Catherine, like it or not; probably not but then he could always fall back on mistresses (if you pardon the expression). But when Catherine died in January 1536 I’m sure Henry would have remarried. Jane Seymour? I doubt it. He turned to her as the opposite, and therefore antidote to Anne, so no Anne, no Jane. But he would have married someone and I think it would still have ended in tears.

May 24, 2012
10:42 pm
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Bella44
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If Henry waited until the death of Katherine to remarry, I wonder if he would have married Anne? I like to think so, I think out of all his wives Anne was his most equal and their marriage was his most passionate. Of course Elizabeth would never have been born, so there’s a downside there but Mary would have spared a lifetime of misery. But if she didn’t give him a son right away (and she would have been older) then he may have found a way to wriggle out of it anyway. I agree with Sharon in that for Henry, the grass was always greener.

May 25, 2012
3:19 pm
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Boleyn
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Ok folks, he’s a brain bender for you to puzzle over..
Would COA agreed to the divorce if Lard Arse was going to marry a French Princess?
I can kind of see COA’s point to why she wouldn’t agree to the divorce once she know the object of his desire was A.B.
As I said in one of my other posting, the court scam they had where the gout ridden Cardinals Campagio and Wolsey were given carte blanc to try the case was a complete farce and I dare say in the ale house and whore houses Lard Arse became a laughing stock. I can’t say I blame the populus for pointing and laughing at him.. Honest bringing up evidence which was nearly 30 years old, surely he could have done better than that?
Dinosaur said the other night why didn’t lard arse just kill COA in the same way as he killed Anne B and Katherine H?
That another question for you to ponder on.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 25, 2012
3:19 pm
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Boleyn
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Ok folks, he’s a brain bender for you to puzzle over..
Would COA agreed to the divorce if Lard Arse was going to marry a French Princess?
I can kind of see COA’s point to why she wouldn’t agree to the divorce once she know the object of his desire was A.B.
As I said in one of my other posting, the court scam they had where the gout ridden Cardinals Campagio and Wolsey were given carte blanc to try the case was a complete farce and I dare say in the ale house and whore houses Lard Arse became a laughing stock. I can’t say I blame the populus for pointing and laughing at him.. Honest bringing up evidence which was nearly 30 years old, surely he could have done better than that?
Dinosaur said the other night why didn’t lard arse just kill COA in the same way as he killed Anne B and Katherine H?
That another question for you to ponder on.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 25, 2012
4:31 pm
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Boleyn
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Louise said

I love ‘what if’s’. If Catherine had a son then Henry would have been blown out of the water with the whole Leviticus argument, so no divorce and no Anne. Henry would have been stuck with Catherine, like it or not; probably not but then he could always fall back on mistresses (if you pardon the expression). But when Catherine died in January 1536 I’m sure Henry would have remarried. Jane Seymour? I doubt it. He turned to her as the opposite, and therefore antidote to Anne, so no Anne, no Jane. But he would have married someone and I think it would still have ended in tears.

But the thing is Louise COA did have a son. Ok he only lived 28 days, but he was alive when born. So I really do wonder about why Lard Arse used the Leviticus text as his reason for divorcing COA.. Yeah I know back then that woman were blamed if the sex of the baby was not what the husband wanted, but COA did prove that she could give birth to a son. It’s just unfortuate, that the sons she did have died either at birth or shortly afterwards..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 25, 2012
7:07 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

Ok folks, he’s a brain bender for you to puzzle over..
Would COA agreed to the divorce if Lard Arse was going to marry a French Princess?
I can kind of see COA’s point to why she wouldn’t agree to the divorce once she know the object of his desire was A.B.
As I said in one of my other posting, the court scam they had where the gout ridden Cardinals Campagio and Wolsey were given carte blanc to try the case was a complete farce and I dare say in the ale house and whore houses Lard Arse became a laughing stock. I can’t say I blame the populus for pointing and laughing at him.. Honest bringing up evidence which was nearly 30 years old, surely he could have done better than that?
Dinosaur said the other night why didn’t lard arse just kill COA in the same way as he killed Anne B and Katherine H?
That another question for you to ponder on.

Boleyn,
I’ll have to think about your first question. That is an interesting one and I haven’t come up with an answer yet. Stumped! I have a hard time picturing Katherine agreeing to go to a convent no matter what. However, maybe the pope would have pushed her harder if another princess was involved, and maybe she would have backed down.
I think there are a few reasons why Henry did not kill KOA as he did Anne and Katherine Howard. First, I don’t think at this point in his life that it would have occurred to him to kill a wife. He wasn’t a lunatic yet. Second, Katherine was royalty. The other two were not. They were British subjects and no other country would protest their deaths as would certainly have happened had he tried to kill Katherine. Third, he would have had to come up with some pretty hefty charges against her. Seeing how she was loved by everyone in England, that wouldn’t have been an easy task. Nobody in England, or in the rest of the world, liked Anne. By the time KH came around, nobody cared and nobody was surprised by Henry’s actions.
Yes, Katherine did have a son, who lived, I think 52 days, but he was born 2 years after her marriage in 1511. The rest of her babes were either miscarriages or stillborns, except for Mary. That was not good enough for Henry. In Henry’s mind, giving birth to a son wasn’t enough if they died. All that proved was that Katherine couldn’t produce boys who lived. It was all her fault that they had no sons who lived past infancy. Leviticus 20:21
“If a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing…they shall be childless.”
Since Henry considered himself childless because he only had a daughter, and she didn’t count in his book, and the boys did not survive, his marriage to Katherine was an unholy thing. Henry had all kinds of excuses.

May 25, 2012
9:41 pm
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Louise
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Boleyn said

Louise said

I love ‘what if’s’. If Catherine had a son then Henry would have been blown out of the water with the whole Leviticus argument, so no divorce and no Anne. Henry would have been stuck with Catherine, like it or not; probably not but then he could always fall back on mistresses (if you pardon the expression). But when Catherine died in January 1536 I’m sure Henry would have remarried. Jane Seymour? I doubt it. He turned to her as the opposite, and therefore antidote to Anne, so no Anne, no Jane. But he would have married someone and I think it would still have ended in tears.

But the thing is Louise COA did have a son. Ok he only lived 28 days, but he was alive when born. So I really do wonder about why Lard Arse used the Leviticus text as his reason for divorcing COA.. Yeah I know back then that woman were blamed if the sex of the baby was not what the husband wanted, but COA did prove that she could give birth to a son. It’s just unfortuate, that the sons she did have died either at birth or shortly afterwards..

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. I meant if Catherine had a son who had survived. Leviticus was used because no child had survived, because apparently Mary didn’t count on the basis she was lacking in the necessary equipment that would have made her worthy of being considered a child of the marriage.

May 25, 2012
9:45 pm
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Louise
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Boleyn said

Ok folks, he’s a brain bender for you to puzzle over..
Would COA agreed to the divorce if Lard Arse was going to marry a French Princess?
I can kind of see COA’s point to why she wouldn’t agree to the divorce once she know the object of his desire was A.B.
As I said in one of my other posting, the court scam they had where the gout ridden Cardinals Campagio and Wolsey were given carte blanc to try the case was a complete farce and I dare say in the ale house and whore houses Lard Arse became a laughing stock. I can’t say I blame the populus for pointing and laughing at him.. Honest bringing up evidence which was nearly 30 years old, surely he could have done better than that?
Dinosaur said the other night why didn’t lard arse just kill COA in the same way as he killed Anne B and Katherine H?
That another question for you to ponder on.

I cannot see tht Catherine would ever have agreed to a divorce. To do so she would have to admit she lied about her relationship with Arthur. I cannot see that her pride would have allowed it. And good on her!!

May 25, 2012
11:42 pm
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Boleyn
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You have to feel sorry for poor Mary when her mum and dad were having their battles of wits, as she must have felt somewhat worthless.
Perhaps not so much around her mum but certainly around Lard arse she must have felt it.. Not fair and certainly not hers or her mother’s fault that she lacked a ding a ling.
I agree about KOA not backing down by god she was one tough old bird. But I don’t think the farce of Leviticus would have actually been used as such a pathetic weapon against KOA if she retired gracefully. There would be no need for Lard Arse and his yes men to drag KOA’s first marriage through the mud. It would simply be a case of her stepping aside and letting a French or whatever princess take her place. She wouldn’t need to confess to anything other than ask her confessor to ask the Pope permission to retire to a convent. Yeah I know there is a bit more to it than that but that’s the basics of it.. And if she did confess to her confessor that she had slept with Arthur in the fullest sence of the word, her confessor could tell no one as what is said in confession is sancrasanct.
Personally I believe that Arthur did try to consumate his marriage to KOA but failed abismally, and the blood the washer woman said they saw on the sheets was basically because KOA had pricked heel and put it there to spare Arthur’s feelings. I hope that makes sence..
Louise I love your posts they are informative but at the same time straight forward and to the point. They certainly produce lively debate, which is all good..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 26, 2012
2:36 am
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Anyanka
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Louise said

Boleyn said

Ok folks, he’s a brain bender for you to puzzle over..
Would COA agreed to the divorce if Lard Arse was going to marry a French Princess?
I can kind of see COA’s point to why she wouldn’t agree to the divorce once she know the object of his desire was A.B.
As I said in one of my other posting, the court scam they had where the gout ridden Cardinals Campagio and Wolsey were given carte blanc to try the case was a complete farce and I dare say in the ale house and whore houses Lard Arse became a laughing stock. I can’t say I blame the populus for pointing and laughing at him.. Honest bringing up evidence which was nearly 30 years old, surely he could have done better than that?
Dinosaur said the other night why didn’t lard arse just kill COA in the same way as he killed Anne B and Katherine H?
That another question for you to ponder on.

I cannot see tht Catherine would ever have agreed to a divorce. To do so she would have to admit she lied about her relationship with Arthur. I cannot see that her pride would have allowed it. And good on her!!

Exactly..KoA believed she was destined to be Queen of England. A French marriage was totally opposed to her family’s desires, regardless of her own feelings.Her sence of dynasty wouldn’t have allowed her to be deposed for a mere French Princess, let alone an English minor peer.

Had the Winter Prince lived, the KoA would have been unassailable as Henry’s chief confident, over Wolsey, over Cromwell, over Henry Branson..

It's always bunnies.

May 26, 2012
3:00 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, even if he had that son he wanted, hell make it 2 sons! I still don’t think he would of been happy with it. If he had a perfect wife who was beloved by everyone and had at least 2 sons and maybe even a daughter then I still cannot see Henry being happy. I see him cheating and complaining about how bored he was with his wife blah blah blah. He was never ever satisfied and I don’t think he was capable of being satisfied.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

May 26, 2012
3:01 am
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Mya Elise
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Yeah, even if he had that son he wanted, hell make it 2 sons! I still don’t think he would of been happy with it. If he had a perfect wife who was beloved by everyone and had at least 2 sons and maybe even a daughter then I still cannot see Henry being happy. I see him cheating and complaining about how bored he was with his wife blah blah blah. He was never ever satisfied and I don’t think he was capable of being satisfied.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

May 27, 2012
3:55 pm
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Olga
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Actually I do think if Katherine had managed to have a reasonably large family like Henry was raised in that he would have been perfectly content with her. Katherine was born royalty and raised to be a Queen. She behaved, in their happy times, like the perfect wife and Queen. Henry would have been allowed his indiscretions, his bad temper, his flights of fancy, his irresponsibility without Katherine batting an eyelid. What reason would there have been, if it had all gone according to “plan”, to be unhappy? And no I don’t think he was incapable of settling down before his first divorce. He married her as soon as he was able and they had many years together.
As for him remarrying after Katherine’s death, well I suspect she would have lived a lot longer had she not gone through what she did in her later years, and if she had left heirs behind there wouldn’t be the desperate need for them.

May 27, 2012
6:42 pm
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Anyanka
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Had Henry and Katherine remainded married with a family, Henry was far too valuble an ally on the European stage to be left unwed when Katherine died.

Royal marriages in those days were much more about politics than love. KoA was lucky that Henry loved her and treated her well at first in comparision to the way her sister Juana was treated by her husband.

It's always bunnies.

May 27, 2012
9:17 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka said

Had Henry and Katherine remainded married with a family, Henry was far too valuble an ally on the European stage to be left unwed when Katherine died.

Royal marriages in those days were much more about politics than love. KoA was lucky that Henry loved her and treated her well at first in comparision to the way her sister Juana was treated by her husband.

Totally true.. I agree that Henry did love KOA, and I think he still loved her when she died.. I think it was more like that he loved her but wasn’t in love with her, if that makes sence. That’s what makes Mary’s marriage all the sadder as she had hoped that marriage to Philip would have brought her the same happiness and love that her mum and dad had, when she was little.
A prime example on how a politically arranged marriage was a big mistake was Lard bucket and AOC, they hated one another, but it’s funny that they became quite good freinds eventually, I wonder if Lard Bucket had given his marriage time to AOC if they could have been happy together?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 28, 2012
3:26 pm
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Olga
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Who’s to say Katherine would have died first if she and Henry had remained happily married? He only outlived her by 11 years. I think she would have lived longer had she not been living where she was and in constant grief.

May 28, 2012
7:08 pm
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Mya Elise
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Yeah but even if Katherine did give him sons and on the surface everything was perfect I still think he would of complained of being bored daily. Does anyone really believe that Henry could of stayed faithful and truly happy for the rest of his years w/Katherine? He married her at a young age so no I can’t see him being happy whatever the circumstances were, he would of always wanted something else, something new, something exciting.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

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