Sunday Express - 13 February 2011 | Henry VIII | Forum

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Sunday Express - 13 February 2011
February 13, 2011
10:57 am
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bethany.x
England
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I can't find it online, sounds interesting…

Do you think it's right morally? I'm not too sure what to think of the idea.

I wish to confess to you and tell you my secret, which is that I am no angel. -Queen Elizabeth I

February 13, 2011
11:55 am
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Anyanka
La Belle Province
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February 13, 2011
1:44 pm
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bethany.x
England
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I wish to confess to you and tell you my secret, which is that I am no angel. -Queen Elizabeth I

February 14, 2011
12:25 am
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MegC
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McLeod's has a host of other symptoms in addition to psychosis.  I don't know, perhaps someone who knows more about H8's behavior can tell whether or not there is any record of any of these:

peripheral neuropathy (any complaint of lack of feeling in his hands or feet or arms or legs?)

cardiomyopathy (any record of chest pains?)

hemolytic anemia (no way they would have known about that…)

limb chorea (involuntary movements)

facial tics and other oral movements (tongue and lip biting)

seizures

late-onset dementia

behavioral changes

 

I'm just thinking, someone would have noticed and recorded things like involuntary movements, seizures, and facial tics if they occurred. Granted, the disease progresses slowly, but if he first started showing symptoms around age 40, like these researchers contend, that still gives the disease 14 or 15 years to progress to severe and noticeable symptoms.  Just sayin…I'll do more looking into it later when it's not 2:30 in the morning.  Night all!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

February 14, 2011
9:29 am
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MegC
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If anyone wants to read the abstract of the original journal article, you can check it out here:

http://journals.cambridge.org/…..id=7918883

You can buy the whole journal article for $30, but I just don't see me doing that.  

It seems like their primary contention is that KoA's and AB's miscarriages resulted from H8's Kell positive status and KoA's and AB's Kell negative status.  Apparently Kell-positive and Kell-negative work the same way as Rh factor in that if a woman is Rh negative but has multiple pregnancies with an Rh positive male resulting in an Rh positive fetus, then her body can and will attack subsequent fetuses after her first pregnancy, resulting in miscarriages.

There's something about their hypothesis that just seems off to me, but I can't put my finger on it.  I think it's primarily because Mary I was KoA's fifth pregnancy and by all reports Mary was healthy at birth.  

According to the information I've looked up about McLeod's Syndrome, it's an x-linked trait so males pass the defective gene on to all their female offspring, but none of their male offspring.  A Kell-positive phenotype is one of the defining characteristics of McLeod's, so if H8 had McLeod's and passed it on to Mary, then Mary would have HAD to have been Kell-positive in at least SOME of her red blood cells.  Wouldn't that have been enough to trigger a miscarriage in KoA?

Some help here or am I overthinking it?

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

February 14, 2011
10:55 am
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DuchessofBrittany
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I have access to The Historical Journal and just finished reading the article titled “A New Explanation for the Reproductive Woes and Midlife Decline of Henry VIII.” The authors do a good job of using the historical documentation to support their theories of Kell blood group and McLeod Syndrome to explain some of Henry's (and his wives) issues. Since these are just theories, nothing can be said with absolute certainty. When pieces of Henry's life are read through the author's theoretical lens, some of their points are probably valid. I will try to remain objective about the article. So, here are a few points I felt were important, and great for further discussion:

Part I of the article examined the background of Henry's reign, his marriages, mistresses, etc. The article touches on the historical of fertility issues, the few successful pregnancies, and how these plays into later discussions.

Part II argued, convincingly that Henry's fertility issues and midlife decline had nothing to do syphillis, Cushing's disease, diabetes, RH blood group, and the other popular assertions about Henry's health. The author's argue that the evidence is not adequate to support these health issues, and I must agree. They support this by noting Henry's health did not seriously decline until after his marriage to KOA was over, and that cannot example why so many of KOA's pregnancies were unsuccessful.

Part III is about explaining Kell blood group and the problems associated with a Kell positive father and a Kell negative mother. They used contemporary case studies in medicine that reflect KOA and Anne. At some point, a mother whose Kell negative becomes pregnant, some Kell antigen can enter her blood system, create antibodies, and expel any further pregnancy or cause newborn children to suffer from hemolytic disease (HDN) and die. They provide documentation the show 9% of the England's populationare carriers of positive Kell phenotype. They also followed, though did not explicitly show, Henry's ancestral fertility problems via his maternal great-grandmother, Jacquetta of Luxembourg's male relatives.

Part IV deals with McLeod syndrome. The author's argue this condition explains Henry's personality and mental decline once he hit forty. They use historical documentation to show Henry's mental changes in his treatment of KOA and Anne Boleyn and Katherine Howard. They also argue for his physical complications later in life, concurrent with osteomylitis. They dismiss the theory that Henry's head trauma in 1536 is the main cause of his personality shift, and look to 1534 as when symptoms of McLeod syndrome began.

One point the author's made for his irrationality brought on by McLeod syndrome was the different ways he dealt with his wives, especially KOA, Anne and KH. His treatment of KOA is pretty tame, and they dismiss theories of her being a Princess. They claim Henry was still rational and reasonable, and did not need to be so hasty.

However, this is a direct quote from their article about Anne and Katherine Howard. I thought it interesting and a discussion creator.

“Despite his abrupt enmity toward Anne, Henry did not seem perturbed by her alleged infidelity.92 This is in considerable contrast to his later reaction to his fifth wife's alleged adultery, when Henry became so distraught that he stormed and wept to such a degree that courtiers feared he verged on insanity.93 Henry apparently did not believe that Anne had committed adultery, but instead developed a sudden and irrational hatred of his queen, and was henceforth committed to what Smith calls her ‘judicial murder’.94 Henry displayed signs of paranoid delusion in claiming that Anne was a ‘cursed and poisoning whore’ who had planned to kill his two older children, and that she had been ‘unfaithful to him with one hundred men’.95 Irrespective of what Henry had initially believed about Anne's guilt or innocence, after her death he embraced, as Ives describes, a ‘prurient self-righteousness which anesthetized all doubt’.96 On 17 May 1536 the king's marriage to Anne was annulled and Elizabeth was proclaimed illegitimate. Henry's actions were thus becoming increasingly irrational, and Ives observes that Henry's ‘decision to annul [their] marriage immediately after accusing her of adultery was, of course, schizoid’” (Whitley and Kramer, 2010, p. 843-844).

"By daily proof you shall find me to be to you both loving and kind" Anne Boleyn

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