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Henry, It didn't work
April 4, 2012
1:15 pm
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Janet
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Mya Elise said

I honestly don’t think Henry did anything without asking how to do it, he never did things by himself. He always listened to what others had to say and while that can be a good thing it can be a very bad thing too.

I agree with you Mya Elise. Henry listened to whoever was telling him what he wanted to hear at the time. When he was tiring of Anne and had set his eyes on Jane, the Seymour faction got things moving in Jane’s direction. Since Anne’s most ardent supporters were accused with her, there was nobody to put obstacles in the Seymours’ way. I think I like Henry even less than I did before.

April 4, 2012
8:11 pm
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Mya Elise
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I think if someone told Henry to go strip and wag his bare behind in front of a dangerous animal and he’d get a son from it then he’d do it without a 2nd thought.

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 4, 2012
8:32 pm
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Bill1978
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Just playing a bit of Devil’s Advocate here, I do wonder if Anne’s legacy would be as high as it is today if Elizabeth I wasn’t such a suuccessful monarch.

Since I posed the hypothetical I guess I should present my vierw point.

I think a number of factors come into play with Anne’s legacy and the history book. Please keep in mind that what I’m about to say is not intended to take away the awesomeness of Anne or is meant to ‘prove’ that Anne isn’t worthy of being remembered and celebrated. It is also not intended to degrade the memory of other people mentioned.

The first factor that comes into play is Jane’s death – Henry’s crew and Henry created a very tangled web of lies and deciet just so he could remarry a lady who ended up dying the first time she gave birth. It almost makes the specatcle of executing Anne laughable really. Henry chops off one wife’s head to only lose the next wife in labour. This would make people think was Anne’s death necessary. Suddenly you get people thinking perhaps he should have just stuck with Anne,

The shortness of Edward VI’s life – Edward was the reason for all the religious upheaval and death in Tudor England. All Henry wanted was a bloody son and while he managed to produce a male heir it turns out that the beloved son couldn’t even manage to survive until his majority or even get married and pump out an heir of his own. So sudden;y the question gets raised – was it worth killing Anne to get a son that would amount to ‘nothing’ in the history book.

Elizabeth’s reign – Any of Henry’s children could have reign for many years, could have been successful. But it was Elizabeth who achieved this. Suddenly, the fact Henry’s daughter was a success makes people look back towards the other parent and think, if Henry knew what Elizabeth would achieve would he have executed the mother.

So my conclusion is if Elizabeth had a reign like her brother or sister, I don’t think Anne would be as highly remembered in history. I really do think she would merely exist as one of the wives of Henry VIII, it is because of Elizzbeth that she has been raised above the other 5 as the memorable one.

April 4, 2012
11:57 pm
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Elliemarianna
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Bill1978 said

So my conclusion is if Elizabeth had a reign like her brother or sister, I don’t think Anne would be as highly remembered in history. I really do think she would merely exist as one of the wives of Henry VIII, it is because of Elizzbeth that she has been raised above the other 5 as the memorable one.

I must say I disagree with you there. I think the main reason Anne is so popular is because she was a modern woman trapped in the 16th century. Modern women can relate to her. Anne to me is remembered for her strength, ambition, innocence and thirst for knowledge AND Elizabeth. She is the wronged woman, her story is a tragedy yet she still managed to die with dignity – this is why she is remembered.

"It is however but Justice, & my Duty to declre that this amiable Woman was entirely innocent of the Crimes with which she was accused, of which her Beauty, her Elegance, & her Sprightliness were sufficient proofs..." Jane Austen.

April 5, 2012
3:56 am
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Bill1978
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I agree with everything you say Elliemarianna, when I typed my response I was acting as a Devil’s Advocate. But I will admit that while she would be remembered for all those things I do wonder IF Jane had lived a long life AND Henry had no reason to get rid of her AND Edward lived long enough to marry and have his own legit heirs AND Elizabeth never got to reign, I do wonder how much of Anne would be recalled. Would she be viewed in a sympathetic light at the same level of say Katherine Howward? But that is a lot of what ifs, so in spite of everything that Henry tried to do to get of rid Anne’s legacy, it manage to survive because of Anne’s awesomeness.

April 5, 2012
5:52 am
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juliane
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Anne, so courageous in the face of such grave injustice. Who could not understand that? She was tough if headstrong, and refused to bend or bow in the direction of the political wind. “Trees last longest that bow with the wind” meant zilch to her.

April 5, 2012
2:39 pm
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Sharon
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Bill1978 said

I agree with everything you say Elliemarianna, when I typed my response I was acting as a Devil’s Advocate. But I will admit that while she would be remembered for all those things I do wonder IF Jane had lived a long life AND Henry had no reason to get rid of her AND Edward lived long enough to marry and have his own legit heirs AND Elizabeth never got to reign, I do wonder how much of Anne would be recalled. Would she be viewed in a sympathetic light at the same level of say Katherine Howward? But that is a lot of what ifs, so in spite of everything that Henry tried to do to get of rid Anne’s legacy, it manage to survive because of Anne’s awesomeness.

Bill,
Anne was the first Queen of England to be beheaded. That in itself grabs our attention. If everything you have said had come to pass, I still believe we would want to know everything about the woman who had captured the king’s heart, caused him to turn England on its’ head in his quest to have her, accused her of treason, adultery, incest and then had her beheaded. We would still want to know all about her, and in reading her story, we would find the brave, intelligent, woman she was. And we’d still be asking the same question, What the heck, Henry?

April 5, 2012
3:36 pm
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Sharon
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Janet said

Mya Elise said

I honestly don’t think Henry did anything without asking how to do it, he never did things by himself. He always listened to what others had to say and while that can be a good thing it can be a very bad thing too.

I agree with you Mya Elise. Henry listened to whoever was telling him what he wanted to hear at the time. When he was tiring of Anne and had set his eyes on Jane, the Seymour faction got things moving in Jane’s direction. Since Anne’s most ardent supporters were accused with her, there was nobody to put obstacles in the Seymours’ way. I think I like Henry even less than I did before.

I have to respectfully disagree. Henry was his own man. When he was a young king, and wanted to play all the time, he did listen to his chief advisor Wolsey. He counted on him to run the government smoothly. After Wolsey, however, Henry ran the show. He always kept in mind who said what just in case he decided he needed to use their words against them. He was definitely in charge. He may have allowed people to think he was taking their advice, but in the end, it was Henry who made the final call. Those who thought they had his ear were at times sadly mistaken. He was very much his own man.

Yes, the Seymours thought they were talking their way into power, but Henry was the ultimate power, not them. It wasn’t there big idea to kill Anne, George, and the other men, it was a decision between Cromwell and Henry. Yes, once the Seymours saw that Henry was interested, they certainly pushed for Jane. And yes, they were whispering nasty things about Anne in his ear. Could that have happened if Henry didn’t want it to happen? Henry was taking it all in and deciding how best to proceed against Anne. Henry had made up his own mind. Nobody talked him into wanting Anne gone. He already knew he wanted that to happen. No one could have persuaded Henry to move against Anne if he did not already plan on doing just that. What he wanted went even further than what the Seymours were suggesting. They wanted Anne gone, but I don’t think they were thinking he would kill her. Henry was way ahead of them on that.

April 5, 2012
4:29 pm
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Mya Elise
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On certain things I do believe he thought completely on his own but there were other particular circumstances where he didn’t think for himself at all like with Anne – I believe he listened to all the rumors and to that Cromwell. But if you disagree that’s fine, we all have our own opinions, hell maybe i’m wrong. LOL

• Grumble all you like, this is how it’s going to be.

April 6, 2012
3:32 am
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juliane
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Ha ha Henry came up with a nasty plan, then looked for supporters. Didn’t have to look further than his nose, in my poor opinion!

April 6, 2012
7:44 am
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Boleyn
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Devil advocate or not Bill poses some very interesting points.
Taking AB and JS, out of the equation, lets look at the children without their mothers around them, would they have grown up differently?
Making KOA the mother of Edward as well as Mary.

Mary. I rather think she would have still turned out the same, her father was an adament defender of the faith, the only difference being that the country would have still been Catholic. Henry perhaps would have married her into France too, to keep the French sweet.

Elizabeth would have only exsisted as yet another bastard of Henry’s doing and his mistress A.B, or as the daughter of A.B and Henry Percy.

Edward. Well yes he would have been King.. Would he have made a good King, well that is something we can really only speculate about? Possibly, but being that he was dictated to more or less every second of his life I don’t think he would have been particularly popular, and perhaps ended up as being tyrannical.
Possibly married to Lady Jane Grey, but I think it would have been more likely he would have married perhaps one of the daughters of Spain
Possibly Joan, daughter of the Emperor Charles V, who would only be 2 years older than him.

Putting the wives back in.

Mary. I rather think she would have still turned out the same as she did. Before A.B, Mary was the adored and only child of KOA and Henry. Given everything a girl could ever wished for. Happy, safe, wanted and beloved of all. Her marriage was already sorted out and she was being brought up by her mother who was teaching her not just how to reign but rule as well, just as Mary’s grandmother (Isabella of Castille) had done. All of a sudden, her father literely chucked her out refused to have anything to do with her. Taken from her mother who she never saw again, treated with contempt and and disgust, called a bastard, and the whole fabric of what was the mainstay of her life her religion was ridiculed and revilled. She must have felt like she’d been sent to hell and perhaps her life became that too. I also get the impression that her mother did rather henpeck her somewhat. Mary was pushed from pillar to post and used a battering ram by both parents to beat each other over the head with. Mary had a lot of axes to grind, not least of all towards Cramer, who had declared the marriage between her mum and dad as unlawful. Small wonder she turned out like she did really.

Elizabeth. Anne’s death made an impression on Elizabeth. But I rather think if Anne had been around when she was growing up. I think her reign would have been just as eventful, Elizabeth was born mature I hope that makes sence. Anne had a very modern view of life and Elizabeth knew to that in order to move with the times one must move with the times. I think of all Henry’s children Legit or non legit, Elizabeth was his favourite, but I don’t think he had a lot of faith in her abilities, he knew she was clever, but that didn’t mean he thought she would be able to rule without a man to help her. I rather think Henry couldn’t or wouldn’t except that woman were not as good as men when it came to ruling a kingdom.
I would have thought that KOA’s example when he was galavanting around France would have given him a swift kick up the behind, that woman could rule just as well as men. Would she have married? Hmm that would be a tough one to answer. I think she would have been fearful, but she would have known that it was her duty to marry and produce children. Who would she have married? Would Henry allow her to follow her heart and marry the only person she ever truly loved Robert Dudley? or would Henry marry her to some French prince or count?

Edward. I actually feel rather sorry for the kid, he gre up knowing what was expected of him, and was simply never allowed to be himself. He was neglected in some respects by Henry, who perhaps felt a little recentful that his mother had died before she could give him a brother to keep him company. In fact srange as this might sound I don’t think Henry understood what having a son was all about. Yes Henry got his hearts desire, but it came a terrible price. Edward was by all accounts very stand offish with his father and perhaps felt that his father didn’t love him.
Perhaps this behaviour was what Henry thought was ok, as he himself didn’t really have a proper father/son relationship with his own father Henry 7th. Henry was practically dictated to when his brother Arthur died, before then he was perhaps viewed as nothing really special by his father, although his mother and his siters adored him. How did Arthur view his brother I wonder?
Anyway would Edward turn out diffwerent if his mother had lived? Again that must be possibly. I think perhaps he would have had the mother love that he missed throughout his entire life, and perhaps Henry would have had a loving father/son relationship with him, as for marriage, again I rather think it would have been a Spanish princess, or more likely Mary QOS.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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