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Henry and the forum
August 8, 2012
2:38 pm
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Olga
Australia
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By the way Neil, very well said

Neil Kemp said
How could an intelligent man capable of such good do so many acts of cruel barbarity which would lead to him being thought of as an egotistical, cruel and heartless monster. In short, a tyrant. Most of his cruelest acts happened after his accident of 1536, could this therefore be used as a form of mitigation for his acts thereafter? I don’t believe so. Henry’s ambitions had been held in check by Wolsey, who effectively kept the brakes on, once he had gone Henry was given free reign to have his ego pampered by his new advisors who had no reason to argue against what Henry wanted through fear, self-interest, or both.

is the theory of Henry’s brain damage outlined in 1536 by Lipscomb? My copies of her books just arrived but I won’t get around to reading them for a while. But every time I have heard the theory mentioned it doesn’t seem to convince me, and I’ll agree with Neil on that point. Also, Louise, great point on the Boleyns, it’s not one I’ve given much thought to before.

Bo I just read a book on AOC a few months ago and I don’t seem to have a very good memory Embarassed. So she converted during Edward’s reign?
Now yes I think Henry still believed himself capable of fathering children in his strange mind. Yes I think he would have tried to have a fumble LOL, why not? I’ve always thought she was good looking. Not sure at that point how easy it would have been for him with his weight and disability. I have heard about the Mary Howard thing but not delved into it yet, I have one word for that. Yuck. Poor Mary.

August 8, 2012
3:14 pm
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Louise
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Susannah Lipscomb does argue that Henry’s injury in 1536 changed his personality. Even though I don’t agree with her I can’t deny that it’s a brilliantly argued book. It’s definitely worth a read.

August 8, 2012
3:19 pm
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Maggyann
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I knew it would stir things up to put in a vote as it were for Henry.Laugh
After my trauma today I had a thought – if Henry was a dog which breed would he be? I’m guessing most of you would say a Staffie…
He was a horrid man in many ways I do agree with that but I still stand by my contention that history has been unfair in the totality of the man it has passed down to us.
Yes I like Henry for reasons I probably can’t fully explain but that doesn’t mean I don’t feel just as I should for all the people he oversaw the end of or abused in his own way.
Henry was a player in many ways but I do believe he was ‘played’ a lot of the time too by others for their own immediate or far reaching reasons.

Let us show them that they are hares and foxes trying to rule over dogs and wolves - Boudica addressing the tribes Circa AD60

August 8, 2012
3:27 pm
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Louise
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Maggyann said

I knew it would stir things up to put in a vote as it were for Henry.Laugh
After my trauma today I had a thought – if Henry was a dog which breed would he be? I’m guessing most of you would say a Staffie…
He was a horrid man in many ways I do agree with that but I still stand by my contention that history has been unfair in the totality of the man it has passed down to us.
Yes I like Henry for reasons I probably can’t fully explain but that doesn’t mean I don’t feel just as I should for all the people he oversaw the end of or abused in his own way.
Henry was a player in many ways but I do believe he was ‘played’ a lot of the time too by others for their own immediate or far reaching reasons.

I can go with that.
Henry as a dog…..mmm…..I actually see him more as a walrus!

August 8, 2012
3:35 pm
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Olga
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For some reason I can imagine Henry with a great big poodle. Don’t ask me why, the image just popped into my head.

Maggyann said
Henry was a player in many ways but I do believe he was ‘played’ a lot of the time too by others for their own immediate or far reaching reasons.

That’s a fair point Maggy, although I think it is stretched sometimes, probably not by historians but more by fictional writers, and sometimes he is portrayed as stupid. Which I don’t agree with, one thing he was was intelligent.

August 10, 2012
9:56 pm
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Boleyn
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If Henry was animal I think he would be a duck billed platypus… or wait a sec I mean a duck billed fattypus…

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 10, 2012
11:50 pm
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Bella44
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Boleyn said

If Henry was animal I think he would be a duck billed platypus… or wait a sec I mean a duck billed fattypus…

LOL Poor Henry! Or not, heh!
I have to say I think he’s the ultimate paradox, and eternally fascinating as a personality. To go from golden prince to ending his days as a tyrant…. a brilliant example of absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Suzannah Lipscomb book is fantastic and I agree with her up to a point, as I tend to think that Henry’s jousting accident just exacerbated what was already part of his personality, even if those seeds of tyranny before 1536 were largely dormant. It’s true that afterwards he became far more cruel and paranoid though.

August 11, 2012
4:06 pm
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Boleyn
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In the Tudors , Thomas More and Henry have having a chat about why Henry 5th is remembered, of course we all know the answer to that one is Agincourt, that made Henry 5th immortal.. H8 wanted the same. Well he can’t say he’s not remembered, and yes he’s certainly immortal, but would he be happy to be immortally remembered for being a stinky mad fat git.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 11, 2012
9:27 pm
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Boleyn
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Boleyn said

If Henry was animal I think he would be a duck billed platypus… or wait a sec I mean a duck billed fattypus…

Or better yet a Muck Filled Fattypus…..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 12, 2012
2:37 pm
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Olga
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I’m still partial to Stinky Fatty Mountain.

I am nearly finished my Anne Boleyn reading. I was tossing up between Mary Tudor and Jane Grey next but I think I might read a couple of books on Henry next. I’ve got the Lipscomb book to read and a couple by Robert Hutchinson on the way.
Is anyone else excited about Starkey’s next book? The first decent book on Tudor History I read was Elizabeth a few years ago and then his book on Henry last year. I can’t wait for the next one.

August 12, 2012
2:55 pm
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Janet
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Olga, what is Starkey’s next book? Embarassed

August 12, 2012
3:17 pm
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Olga
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It’s Henry: Model of a Tyrant, due out in October.

August 12, 2012
6:43 pm
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Janet
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Thanks Olga. I’ll put it on my list. My kids always give me gift cards for book stores for Christmas, but I probably won’t want to wait until then. Laugh

August 12, 2012
11:54 pm
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Olga
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I’ll add you to the excited list Laugh I just loved his last book on Henry.

August 13, 2012
1:44 am
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Bella44
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Olga said

It’s Henry: Model of a Tyrant, due out in October.

Finally!!!
It seems years since I read ‘Virtuous Prince’. Oh, that’s ‘cos it was Laugh

August 13, 2012
6:59 pm
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Sharon
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Yay it is about time. Looking forward to this book. Like Bella, I believe it has been too long!

August 13, 2012
7:08 pm
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Louise
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Weirdly Eric Ives also had a biography of Henry coming out. It was due out about 2 years ago but then seemed to die a death. I still don’t know when it’s going to come out or whether it’s going to come out at all. I was really looking forward to Ives’ views on Henry.

August 14, 2012
1:46 am
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Gill
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People say Henry changed, but I sometimes wonder if he really did, or if he always had that nasty streak but events conspired to bring it out of him? When his brother died, Henry VII kept Henry almost under house arrest, and I wonder if he saw something in his younger son that worried him. Maybe it was kept under the surface when he was young and handsome, had Wolsey doing the work for him, a pretty wife, lots of money and toadying yes men…almost everything he wanted. When he finally stopped getting everything his own way – no divorce, no son etc, it brought the monster to the surface. He did display nasty moments quite early on. Executing Empson and Dudley for instance – they were hated tax men but had only been doing what their employer (Henry VII) had instructed them to do. He had no compunction in killing them because he thought it would increase his own popularity.

August 14, 2012
1:47 am
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Gill
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Louise said

Weirdly Eric Ives also had a biography of Henry coming out. It was due out about 2 years ago but then seemed to die a death. I still don’t know when it’s going to come out or whether it’s going to come out at all. I was really looking forward to Ives’ views on Henry.

I hope it does eventually come out, I would be all over that like jam on toast!

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