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Henry and Jane
August 13, 2012
12:05 pm
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Gill
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I’ve been rereading a lot of my books recently as well as catching up with some new ones, and one thing that strikes me is that Henry was quite unpleasant to Jane before she fell pregnant. He was kind of ‘bounced’ into marrying her on the rebound after Anne’s fall. If we believe Ives (who I find one of the more credible authors), Anne’s fall was very sudden, and as we all know Henry would never, ever admit he was wrong about anything, but do you think it possible that in his heart of hearts he regretted what he did to Anne, and that maybe that might be at least part of the reason he was so obnoxious to Jane? That maybe he associated her with an event he wished hadn’t happened? Maybe that’s why he would never speak about Anne – because to do so brought up guilty feelings he would rather put out of his mind, rather than because he hated her? Or am I just being too fanciful and wishing that were true?

August 13, 2012
3:40 pm
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Olga
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I don’t know Gill. I did recently read an article about Henry having kept a few things with the H&A monogram that were inventoried after his death. That makes me think he wanted to keep some part of her with him, perhaps.
But as for Jane I think Henry’s awful treatment of her stemmed more from frustration than anything, and also as a display of dominance. Henry by this point was so completely obsessed with having a son he had let one wife die alone and murdered another. I don’t think he loved Jane, I don’t think she loved him, and I think their whole relationship was a charade. If she hadn’t managed to conceive he would have gotten rid of her as well. I believe none of his wives were crowned after Anne, if Jane had lived she would have been, but only after producing a son. And yeah, maybe he would have loved her if she had lived and given him lots of babies.
I have a feeling he didn’t want to fall madly in love so soon after Anne. I think he wanted, and got, the complete opposite of Anne, the complete opposite of his relationship with her and he wanted a woman he could browbeat into submission. But that’s just a thought.

August 14, 2012
11:22 am
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Boleyn
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Olga said

I don’t know Gill. I did recently read an article about Henry having kept a few things with the H&A monogram that were inventoried after his death. That makes me think he wanted to keep some part of her with him, perhaps.
But as for Jane I think Henry’s awful treatment of her stemmed more from frustration than anything, and also as a display of dominance. Henry by this point was so completely obsessed with having a son he had let one wife die alone and murdered another. I don’t think he loved Jane, I don’t think she loved him, and I think their whole relationship was a charade. If she hadn’t managed to conceive he would have gotten rid of her as well. I believe none of his wives were crowned after Anne, if Jane had lived she would have been, but only after producing a son. And yeah, maybe he would have loved her if she had lived and given him lots of babies.
I have a feeling he didn’t want to fall madly in love so soon after Anne. I think he wanted, and got, the complete opposite of Anne, the complete opposite of his relationship with her and he wanted a woman he could browbeat into submission. But that’s just a thought.

Actually Olga, Henry did think about tossing Jane aside due to the fact she didn’t get pregnant as quickly as he hoped..If you think about Henry’s ego played a big part here. KOA got pregnant almost straight away when he married her. Anne was pregnant when he married her and he expected the same thing to happen where Jane was concerned, when that didn’t happen, he believed it was her fault not his, after all he’s done his bit she should be pregnant, and he couldn’t get why she wasn’t.
As for loving each other Hmm I think there was a form of affection betweeen them but whether it was love is debatable. In Henry’s case I just think he was glad to have someone who was quiet and happy to sit by the fire, and not argue the toss with him over every little thing. In Jane’s case it was more to do with family than actual love, her brothers were just little fish and because of her they became big fish, who later became sharks, if Jane had survived childbirth and was still around when Eddy became King things may have been different as I think her presence kept them in order.
If Anne had had a son well the possibilities are endless here. It’s fairly possible that the Battle of Solway Moss may not have happened and that James V and Henry may have cemented a peace treaty, by marrying James’s daughter Mary (The infamous Queen of Scots) to Anne’s son.
Mary and Elizabeth were close as children but there was always going to be the bone of contention between them over religion, and in Mary’s case you were Catholic or dead, there were very few exceptions. Which is why I find her attitude toward J.G very strange to fathom.. That’s a whole new ball game..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 14, 2012
9:48 pm
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Anyanka
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Henry was certainly grumbling about the other pretty girls at court a few weeks after he maried Jane, along the lines of having rushed to the alter rather than having a look-see of other possible candidates for the position of queen.

It's always bunnies.

August 19, 2012
9:19 pm
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Boleyn
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Anyanka.. Is that possible candidates in Henry’s eyes? I should imagine after he murdered Anne, there would be very few woman left willing to take the risk to put their head in the noose of marriage with Henry. In anycase if he had tossed Jane aside there would be people waiting to pounce on Jane to blame her for Anne’s Murder. I wouldn’t say she would be lynched exactly but certainly her life would be at risk. Afterall where could she go? There were little to no convents left and those that were, were in a shocking state. She could go abroad I suppose and do what exactly?
The Seymour Boys would have lost their chance of crowing over defeating the Howards in their bid for power. There were a lot of Howards and Howard relatives at the court and only 2 Seymour boys, I rather think they would be somehow ousted from court never to Apple polish Henry’s backside again.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 23, 2012
1:46 am
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Boleynfan
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Gill, perhaps it’s just me agreeing with you about wanting this to be the case, but I do agree that there is a very real possibility that Henry regretted his actions regarding Anne’s death. I believe that Henry deluded himself into thinking the lies that Cromwell fed him–not that Henry was innocent, just that he had the talent of convincing himself of nearly anything. If you look at Henry’s entire life up to 1536, everything he does illustrates his prudishness and moral erectness. Even with the shoddy divorce of CoA, it seems as if he “convinced himself” that she really did not come to him a virgin. In my opinion, this is a theme throughout Henry’s life; he desired himself to be a moral person, but when that interfered with the “easy road,” he convinced himself that in fact the “easy road” WAS the moral path!
So going along with this theory, I would surmise that he was probably the type to, most of the time when thinking of Anne, consider himself a husband scorned and remember her with hatred for her supposed crimes…but then, there must have been those rare occasions on when his true conscience didn’t allow the false justification he had piled on to remain, and heavy with the knowledge that he had gone along with lies and had his wife killed, he would shy away from these thoughts.
So, Gill, I think that maybe due to Henry’s underlying sense of guilt, lent by a nagging conscience, he took his frustration and anger out on his new wife, Jane Seymour. Just my two cents! 🙂

"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"

August 23, 2012
6:51 pm
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Boleyn
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Boleynfan said

Gill, perhaps it’s just me agreeing with you about wanting this to be the case, but I do agree that there is a very real possibility that Henry regretted his actions regarding Anne’s death. I believe that Henry deluded himself into thinking the lies that Cromwell fed him–not that Henry was innocent, just that he had the talent of convincing himself of nearly anything. If you look at Henry’s entire life up to 1536, everything he does illustrates his prudishness and moral erectness. Even with the shoddy divorce of CoA, it seems as if he “convinced himself” that she really did not come to him a virgin. In my opinion, this is a theme throughout Henry’s life; he desired himself to be a moral person, but when that interfered with the “easy road,” he convinced himself that in fact the “easy road” WAS the moral path!
So going along with this theory, I would surmise that he was probably the type to, most of the time when thinking of Anne, consider himself a husband scorned and remember her with hatred for her supposed crimes…but then, there must have been those rare occasions on when his true conscience didn’t allow the false justification he had piled on to remain, and heavy with the knowledge that he had gone along with lies and had his wife killed, he would shy away from these thoughts.
So, Gill, I think that maybe due to Henry’s underlying sense of guilt, lent by a nagging conscience, he took his frustration and anger out on his new wife, Jane Seymour. Just my two cents! 🙂

BoleynFan I do feel Henry did regret Anne’s death, but perhaps not until K.H met with the axeman. Anne was the only true love of his life and that love killed her too. Perhaps that is some of the reason to why his temper became so volatile as he had to live with the guilt that he’s killed an innocent woman..All the other deaths at his hand he could justify as being someone else’s fault but not Anne’s, her blood and her death was firmly on his hands and lay solely at his door, and no matter how he tried to justify or blame someone else for her death the more it came back and bit him in the backside.. I actually wonder if some of the reason to why Henry had Cromwell added to the list of his chopping block victims. because Henry could no longer live with the guilt that Cromwell was the one who drummed up the charges against Anne in the first place. I always felt that Cromwell losing his head purely because AOC wasn’t as pretty as he had described to Henry was extremely unfair. That wasn’t his fault he only had the reports of his yes men to go by. If anyone is to blame for the AOC fiasco it was Holbien, being a little to poetic with his paintbrush…Cromwell wasn’t popular but then neither was Wolsey. Both these men had a job to do and they did it, without either of them at the helm of Henry’s spending it went out of control.
Henry I feel simply got rid of Cromwell over the guilt of Anne’s death by killing him he thought the guilt he felt would go away, which of course it didn’t and got magified 100 fold when K.H’s wanton behaviour came to light..Again K.H’s murder was a way of him trying to get rid of the guilt he felt about Anne.
In some ways I also believe that KOA was as entranced by Anne as Henry was, I don’t mean in a sexual way or anything, but look at it this way. KOA’s court circle was rather staid and boring, doing the same things day in day out, and along comes Anne who was clever, merry and fun to be with. Anne showed a different way of life to the way KOA was brought up. She enjoyed philosopical debates, she was a gifted musician and she just had something that perhaps KOA wished she had, had. It doesn’t mean to say she liked Anne as Anne was probably a little too headstrong for KOA’s tastes. KOA saw Henry I feel as an overgrown child and at times annoyed him immensely by not being able to keep up with his pursuits. I believe she didn’t go hunting as much after Mary’s birth so Henry could really only show off his hunting prowess to his freinds and that can’t have been much fun, same as his jousting she did go to those but I don’t think she really enjoyed them, and again with dancing, Henry loved to dance although he would dance with anyone if Anne was KOA proxy (for want of a better word) at least he wouldn’t be looking around so much for other woman to have a midnight fumble with. Anne on the other hand enjoyed hunting, dancing and other outdoor pursuits, so perhaps KOA saw Anne as a sort of companion not just for her but for Henry too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 23, 2012
7:15 pm
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Sharon
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In a way maybe Henry did regret killing Anne. Many blame the accident at the joust for Henry’s downhill slide into tyranny, and I’m not saying it wasn’t partly to blame, but I think (A) He always had it in him and (B) It was his decision to kill the one woman he had truly cared for; and that messed up his head that year. (and for all the years he had left)
His treatment of Jane stemmed from his belief that he had gotten rid of a woman he claimed to have loved because she couldn’t produce sons; and yet, the woman he replaced her with, wasn’t getting pregnant fast enough for him. So, yeah he was obnoxious to her. She wasn’t fulfilling her duty to him.
If he did regret what happened to Anne, he didn’t have anyone he could confide in about it. There was no one left who really knew her, and he would never admit to having made a mistake. The people surrounding him hated Anne. He had killed her. Showing any type of regret was impossible. He had to keep his feelings to himself. I would think keeping regret buried inside him would have caused a tremendous amount of mental problems.
Jane was not Anne. Anne would not have been able to be quiet while Henry launched into a tirade. Maybe Henry was obnoxious to Jane to see if she would strike back. Maybe he was hoping she would show a tiny bit of spirit. Then maybe he realized he had killed the one woman who was willing to show him she had spirit. When Jane finally did get pregnant, the testing was over and she became the perfect woman.

August 23, 2012
9:38 pm
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Boleyn
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I suppose if you think about it Jane not getting pregnant almost from the time the I do and I declare them bit was a big blow to Henry massive over inflated ego.. I have mentioned this before before. KOA got pregnant perhaps almost as early as their Wedding Night. Anne was Pregnant when they married. Jane however took months to finally get pregnant, the fault didn’t lay with him however it was Jane. When as Sharon rightly says, Jane uttered the immortal words of “Hey Hubby of my dreams I’m pregnant” she became the perfect woman.
Up until she got pregnant Henry seemed to blame everything on her or so it seems to me and I know he was often verbally abusive with her.
I’m not sure if he actually did clout her one when she became a little to vocal about Mary, but I know that he did tell her to shut her trap or she would suffer Anne Boleyn’s fate and with that she shut her trap..
The fact she had a son I don’t think would have saved her from Henry’s spite and malice because what ever was wrong wth him mentally (after his fall) was part of his nature. If she had lived and had further children I still think he would have verbally abused her. It’s my opinion he got some sort of sadistic pleasure out of watching woman cringing before him.
Woman back then weren’t suppose to have opinions it was a case of do as you told or else situation.. I have to have a giggle if Henry was surrounded by woman in these modern times it’s him that would be cringing on the floor now. We’d all have him sobbing for his mother if we all told him what we thought about him.. As long as I can put the boot in every so often I’d be very happy..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

August 24, 2012
1:20 am
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Gill
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Boleyn said
BoleynFan I do feel Henry did regret Anne’s death, but perhaps not until K.H met with the axeman. Anne was the only true love of his life and that love killed her too. Perhaps that is some of the reason to why his temper became so volatile as he had to live with the guilt that he’s killed an innocent woman..All the other deaths at his hand he could justify as being someone else’s fault but not Anne’s, her blood and her death was firmly on his hands and lay solely at his door, and no matter how he tried to justify or blame someone else for her death the more it came back and bit him in the backside.. I actually wonder if some of the reason to why Henry had Cromwell added to the list of his chopping block victims. because Henry could no longer live with the guilt that Cromwell was the one who drummed up the charges against Anne in the first place. I always felt that Cromwell losing his head purely because AOC wasn’t as pretty as he had described to Henry was extremely unfair. That wasn’t his fault he only had the reports of his yes men to go by. If anyone is to blame for the AOC fiasco it was Holbien, being a little to poetic with his paintbrush…Cromwell wasn’t popular but then neither was Wolsey. Both these men had a job to do and they did it, without either of them at the helm of Henry’s spending it went out of control.
Henry I feel simply got rid of Cromwell over the guilt of Anne’s death by killing him he thought the guilt he felt would go away, which of course it didn’t and got magified 100 fold when K.H’s wanton behaviour came to light..Again K.H’s murder was a way of him trying to get rid of the guilt he felt about Anne.
In some ways I also believe that KOA was as entranced by Anne as Henry was, I don’t mean in a sexual way or anything, but look at it this way. KOA’s court circle was rather staid and boring, doing the same things day in day out, and along comes Anne who was clever, merry and fun to be with. Anne showed a different way of life to the way KOA was brought up. She enjoyed philosopical debates, she was a gifted musician and she just had something that perhaps KOA wished she had, had. It doesn’t mean to say she liked Anne as Anne was probably a little too headstrong for KOA’s tastes. KOA saw Henry I feel as an overgrown child and at times annoyed him immensely by not being able to keep up with his pursuits. I believe she didn’t go hunting as much after Mary’s birth so Henry could really only show off his hunting prowess to his freinds and that can’t have been much fun, same as his jousting she did go to those but I don’t think she really enjoyed them, and again with dancing, Henry loved to dance although he would dance with anyone if Anne was KOA proxy (for want of a better word) at least he wouldn’t be looking around so much for other woman to have a midnight fumble with. Anne on the other hand enjoyed hunting, dancing and other outdoor pursuits, so perhaps KOA saw Anne as a sort of companion not just for her but for Henry too.

You make a very good point about Cromwell’s death – I always thought the thing about blaming him for AOC was an extremely petty reason to kill someone, and that there must have been a great deal more to it than that. Cromwell took over a lot of the tedious administrative work after Wolsey died, when Henry discovered he hated doing it himself. To get rid of him seems a bit like cutting off his nose to spite his face if it was all over AOC. Maybe he did have him executed as a kind of retribution over Anne B.

I think the whole business did mess him up mentally. A lot of historians point to 1536 as the year that Henry changed. Maybe Anne didn’t fall because he changed, maybe he changed because of Anne’s execution. She had been a friend and confidant as well as his lover and Queen – it had to have affected him. But of course once the deed was done he didn’t have anyone to talk to about it if he did feel guilt or regret. It would have just festered and eventually made him unhinged.

August 24, 2012
6:38 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

The fact she had a son I don’t think would have saved her from Henry’s spite and malice because what ever was wrong wth him mentally (after his fall) was part of his nature. If she had lived and had further children I still think he would have verbally abused her. It’s my opinion he got some sort of sadistic pleasure out of watching woman cringing before him.
Woman back then weren’t suppose to have opinions it was a case of do as you told or else situation.. I have to have a giggle if Henry was surrounded by woman in these modern times it’s him that would be cringing on the floor now. We’d all have him sobbing for his mother if we all told him what we thought about him.. As long as I can put the boot in every so often I’d be very happy..

There was a time when Henry had said something to Katherine and she let him have it. He then went and told Anne about it and she let him have it for picking a fight with Katherine for she had warned him he would not win an argument with her. Good times! Laugh I don’t exactly remember what the argument was about, but it makes me smile to think that both of these women were not afraid to tell Henry where to get off.
He wanted peace. Henry had had two viragos. He needed docile, and he got it.

August 24, 2012
8:21 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Boleyn said

The fact she had a son I don’t think would have saved her from Henry’s spite and malice because what ever was wrong wth him mentally (after his fall) was part of his nature. If she had lived and had further children I still think he would have verbally abused her. It’s my opinion he got some sort of sadistic pleasure out of watching woman cringing before him.
Woman back then weren’t suppose to have opinions it was a case of do as you told or else situation.. I have to have a giggle if Henry was surrounded by woman in these modern times it’s him that would be cringing on the floor now. We’d all have him sobbing for his mother if we all told him what we thought about him.. As long as I can put the boot in every so often I’d be very happy..

There was a time when Henry had said something to Katherine and she let him have it. He then went and told Anne about it and she let him have it for picking a fight with Katherine for she had warned him he would not win an argument with her. Good times! Laugh I don’t exactly remember what the argument was about, but it makes me smile to think that both of these women were not afraid to tell Henry where to get off.
He wanted peace. Henry had had two viragos. He needed docile, and he got it.

He’d get it ok Sharon.. straight between his eyes and I’m not talking about the ones on his fat face..
The thing is even though he had enough of woman who gave him their opinions I.e KOA and AB and wanted peace and a docile wife by his side he wasn’t content. Henry was forever looking for something he would never find. I often wonder if (as Freud would put it) he had an Oedipus complex.
If you look at his childhood he was brought up in a household of woman and his mother was perhaps the only one who showed him any type of affection, that was solely based on him, not for what he could do for her. He and his father didn’t really have the usual father/Son relationship and up until Arthur’s demise he was mearly seen as the spare that would do for the Church.
KOA and J.S had the motherly instints in them that he missed when his mother died. KOA was the replacement for her with benefits in much the same way as J.S was. in short they worshipped the ground he walked upon. Although he did treat them like they were dirt. Anne was his first and only true love and he never forgot her. Did Henry actually turn to KOA for comfort if he and Anne had, had a fight? I know that he went to Jane for comfort now and again towards the end of Anne’s life. I think Jane’s death and to a certain extent KOA’s death, was to Henry like losing his mother all over again.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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