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1536 The Joust
February 22, 2013
6:31 pm
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Sharon
Binghamton, NY
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Henry had an accident in January of 1536 that supposedly left him unconscious for two hours. Was he unconscious for that long? The two hours was reported by Rudolpho Pio, Bishop of Faenza, the Papal Nuncio in Paris, and he said this from Paris. Chapuys reports that Henry had a fall but he was fine. He says that Anne blamed her final miscarriage on Norfolk who had told her about the accident, but it was told to her in a gentle manner. The accident BTW was on the 24th. The miscarriage on the 29th. Is there anyone else who attests to Henry being unconscious for that long a period? Wouldn’t Chapuys report that fact to his king? I’m curious as to what you all think?

February 22, 2013
7:33 pm
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LadyPrincess
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Because Henry recovered from his fall, perhaps Chapuys decided not to go into detail…But I agree it is curious that — that’s pretty much all he said on the matter.

“How haps it, Governor, yesterday my Lady Princess, and today but my Lady Elizabeth?"- Elizabeth I

February 22, 2013
11:22 pm
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Boleyn
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It’s possible that Henry was just badly winded, perhaps enough to knock him out for maybe 1/2 hour or so, and that the 2 hours was put about perhaps even by Henry to get sympathy, after he decided to get shot of Anne.
As for Anne’s miscarriage I’ve been tinkering with a few ideas to do with that. Anne would have most certainly been fretful and maybe panic stricken when Norfolk the odious little runt broke the news that Henry had been hurt (Do we actually know what his exact words were to her?) in the joust. Is it possible that afterwards she or perhaps Norfolk asked for the doctor to come and calm her down (for want of a better word) and perhaps gave her a posset which inadvertly induced her to miscarry? I believe Hemlock, Mandrake and possibly Valerian root which is used to help ease sleeping problems, but it can cause problems in pregnant woman. Of course in those days medicine and the causes and effects of taking said medicines weren’t so well known.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 3, 2013
3:55 pm
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The Other Boleyn Boy
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I’ve read he was barely unconsious for any time at all, and that Anne’s miscarriage was more caused by the shock of finding Jane Seymour on her husband’s lap. Boleyn’s theory – in the post above – is an interesting one though. Given how much was riding on Anne’s pregnancy at this point the slightest thing could have sent her over the edge emotionally.

April 20, 2013
9:57 pm
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Boleyn
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How many months pregnant was Anne when she miscarried in January 1536. I know when the doctors examined the featus they said it displayed the chararistics of being male. But was that true or where they told to say that just to wind Henry up?
If you think about it this makes the whole thing very laughable, because wasn’t it believed that right up until the last month the gender of the baby was not decided upon. in the last Month the XY or XX cromosomes fought it out for dominance on what the child was to be born as, if that makes sence.
So surely if that is what they truly believed then they were talking through their backsides when they adamently declared that Anne had miscarried of a son?
I know that Anne battled bravely on to keep the child from aborting and it made her quite ill for a while afterwards. Which makes Henry’s treatment of her all the more sadistic (loosely worded) Brutal and uncaring. I wonder how he would have reacted if she had actually died as a result of the miscarriage? Would he have shed crocodile tears for her?
Anne blamed Norfolk (Odious little cretin) for her miscarriage and we all know what a bastard he was. How do you think he broke the news to Anne on what had happened to Henry. Did he openly accuse her of trying to murder the King through practise of witchcraft? Did he strike her? and blame her for the accident in the jousting yard?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 20, 2013
10:12 pm
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Boleyn
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Rumour has it by the way that on the day that Anne miscarried all the tapers around COA’s tomb blazed up shining brightly for some minutes before settling back down to normal.. it was said this also happened again on the day of Anne’s execution. It is also said that Maria de Salanas was buried with Catherine when she died. In the Victorian Era some curious victorian nosey parkers were supposed to have gone into the vault of Peterbrough Catherdral and made a small hole in COA’s coffin which they stated was quite large and put in a small metal hook and pulled out a small fragment of black lace cloth which smelt strongly of I presume spiced Alcohol but before they had chance to examine it it dissolved in into dust. They quickly sealed up the hole and left.. COA’s tomb is topped with a black Marble slab with gold lettering on it. It’s beautiful but very sad as well that this once great Queen of England has so a simple tomb.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 21, 2013
5:02 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

How many months pregnant was Anne when she miscarried in January 1536. I know when the doctors examined the featus they said it displayed the chararistics of being male. But was that true or where they told to say that just to wind Henry up?
I

From what I remember, and I don’t have my books to hand..bloody spring cleaning, the fetus was described as being of 15 weeks growth, so start of the second trimester.

Second trimester miscarriages are the rarest since once past the 12 week stage, the pregnancy is well advanced enough to continue to a live birth and only the most serious of abnormalities will cause a still birth in the third trimester.

Skilled US technicans can say which gender a child is going to be at 15 weeks and I’m guessing most mid-wives of the 16th C would have seen plenty of m/cs in various stages of gestation to make a reasonable call on the sex of the infant.

It's always bunnies.

April 21, 2013
3:55 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Anyanka. So it is entirely possible then that they were right. I had thought that given that Anne had so many enemies that perhaps the doctors were told (threatened with violence) or bribed to say it was a son.
It was also rumoured that they said the child showed signs of abnormality? Hmm I’m not to sure about this one to be honest. Mother nature as a way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff so to speak and i’m sure that if the baby was deformed in some way she would have miscarried a month or even 6 weeks before, as she had had 1 maybe 2 miscarriages after Elizabeth before she ot pregnant with this last chance for her. That’s sounds a bit hollow but it’s not meant that way but this baby was indeed Anne’s last chance her very life depended upon it. Her loss of the baby must have been a devestating blow to her. Poor Anne.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

April 21, 2013
7:18 pm
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Sharon
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Chapuys claimed that “the child had the appearance of a male about three months and a half old.” Wriothesley agreed it was “a man child.” and said that “she (Anne) had reckoned herself at the time but fifteen weeks gone with child.”
I agree that those who attended Anne during this miscarriage would have been able to tell the gender.
During Elizabeth’s reign, Nicolas Sander claimed Anne miscarried of “a shapeless mass.” There was no mention of a deformed fetus at the time of the miscarriage or during the rest of Henry’s reign. This theory came about much later. The thinking was that a deformity in a baby was a sign of sexual misbehavior by a parent. It couldn’t possibly have been Henry, therefore, Anne was the guilty party and she was guilty of the charges brought against her.

April 21, 2013
7:46 pm
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Chapuys claimed that “the child had the appearance of a male about three months and a half old.” Wriothesley agreed it was “a man child.” and said that “she (Anne) had reckoned herself at the time but fifteen weeks gone with child.”
I agree that those who attended Anne during this miscarriage would have been able to tell the gender.
During Elizabeth’s reign, Nicolas Sander claimed Anne miscarried of “a shapeless mass.” There was no mention of a deformed fetus at the time of the miscarriage or during the rest of Henry’s reign. This theory came about much later. The thinking was that a deformity in a baby was a sign of sexual misbehavior by a parent. It couldn’t possibly have been Henry, therefore, Anne was the guilty party and she was guilty of the charges brought against her.

I was thinking much the same thing myself about Anne supposed deformed baby. That Cromwell made the story of incest out of it made me wonder about the whole rumour of alledged deformaty. I don’t think he openly said that George must of been the father of Anne’s child I think he more or less implied it was to give his drummed up case against her a little bit more pep, and to blacken her forever. I.e the woman was the biggest whore since the whore of babylon first became know of, and her sexual charms was of such a nature that she wold sleep with anything animal (Henry) Vegatable (Henry) or mineral, including her own brother.
it could well of been that the child was perhaps a little younger in term than 15 weeks. if so then the child was not fully formed at this time and could well of been still developing. The first 3 months are when the baby’s blueprint is in the making after that, it’s just a case of growing up. and the poor mother throwing up with morning sickness. It wasn’t easy to judge how far along they were along with their pregnancy in those days. these days with ultrasound it’s much easier although they can be wrong sometimes.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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