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Gone With The Wind.
April 11, 2011
4:59 pm
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Anyanka
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

@ La Belle Creole:  I agree.  I don't think a publisher would look at GWTW twice today.  Not only because of it's racism, but also because of it's length.

I think MM wrote GWTW by hand while she was recovering from a broken ankle.


Well, an editor might give it a chance if MM included some kind of apologist social commentary in the narrative.  As you say, it would also have more of a chance if it was shorter.  Scarlett's child-marriage (she was sixteen years old when she married Charles) would have to be adjusted (age change) as well.
 


@MegC — it's astonishing to me how many wrote these massive novels by hand (we have it SO easy these days LOL). And you're right about length as well — as though I did once joke with a friend that I wondered if JK Rowling was being paid by the word (or letter) as one of her Harry Potter books ran nearly 600 pages and most of it felt like filler material that added nothing to the story.
 

@Le Belle Creole — About Scarlett's child-marriage. Compared to Lady Margaret Beaufort, Scarlett was almost over the hill. Poor Margaret was TWELVE when she was married to the 24-year-old Edmund Tudor! I know it was the 15th century but….


The age of consent in lots of countries is still 16. In the UK you can be married at 16 with your parent's permission though in scotland it's 14….In many of the states it's the same.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M…..geable_age

It's always bunnies.

April 11, 2011
5:19 pm
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I'm effectively behind…better pick up my copy and start reading tonight! 😀

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 11, 2011
5:19 pm
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Anyanka said:

TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

@ La Belle Creole:  I agree.  I don't think a publisher would look at GWTW twice today.  Not only because of it's racism, but also because of it's length.

I think MM wrote GWTW by hand while she was recovering from a broken ankle.


Well, an editor might give it a chance if MM included some kind of apologist social commentary in the narrative.  As you say, it would also have more of a chance if it was shorter.  Scarlett's child-marriage (she was sixteen years old when she married Charles) would have to be adjusted (age change) as well.
 


@MegC — it's astonishing to me how many wrote these massive novels by hand (we have it SO easy these days LOL). And you're right about length as well — as though I did once joke with a friend that I wondered if JK Rowling was being paid by the word (or letter) as one of her Harry Potter books ran nearly 600 pages and most of it felt like filler material that added nothing to the story.
 
@Le Belle Creole — About Scarlett's child-marriage. Compared to Lady Margaret Beaufort, Scarlett was almost over the hill. Poor Margaret was TWELVE when she was married to the 24-year-old Edmund Tudor! I know it was the 15th century but….


The age of consent in lots of countries is still 16. In the UK you can be married at 16 with your parent's permission though in scotland it's 14….In many of the states it's the same.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M…..geable_age


Yes, but many publishers accepting romances require the hero and the heroine be of adult age.   On reflection, GWTW might get by since MM doesn't write detailed bedroom scenes.   

April 11, 2011
5:23 pm
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

@ La Belle Creole:  I agree.  I don't think a publisher would look at GWTW twice today.  Not only because of it's racism, but also because of it's length.

I think MM wrote GWTW by hand while she was recovering from a broken ankle.


Well, an editor might give it a chance if MM included some kind of apologist social commentary in the narrative.  As you say, it would also have more of a chance if it was shorter.  Scarlett's child-marriage (she was sixteen years old when she married Charles) would have to be adjusted (age change) as well. 


@MegC — it's astonishing to me how many wrote these massive novels by hand (we have it SO easy these days LOL). And you're right about length as well — as though I did once joke with a friend that I wondered if JK Rowling was being paid by the word (or letter) as one of her Harry Potter books ran nearly 600 pages and most of it felt like filler material that added nothing to the story.
@Le Belle Creole — About Scarlett's child-marriage. Compared to Lady Margaret Beaufort, Scarlett was almost over the hill. Poor Margaret was TWELVE when she was married to the 24-year-old Edmund Tudor! I know it was the 15th century but….


LOL … Isn't there a part of you that just cringes?   I have an adult niece who's engaged and I'm STILL a bit ambivalent about her approaching wedding.  She's almost 19 and I think that's just too young.  I know I was nowhere near prepared for marriage at age 19. 

April 11, 2011
5:24 pm
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MegC said:

I'm effectively behind…better pick up my copy and start reading tonight! 😀


I have a copy.  Let me kinow when you are ready and I'll begin then. 

April 11, 2011
6:13 pm
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Sharon said:

This book is Epic!  It's just too bad that some people had to stick their nose in and say it was not pc.  That really gets me!  As you said, Tina, MM was writing about “her” South.  Take it or leave it. If people don't like the way a story is told, they do not have to read it. And don't be telling me that the book is banned.  I remember how books were banned in school.  We would get the list and go right out and buy the books. 

After reading GWTW, it was a long time before I didn't want to see Sherman hung.  Come to think of it, I don't believe I have changed my mind on that score.  What a path of destruction he wrought.  I did feel sorry for the way the carpetbaggers came in and took over.  Robert E. Lee will always be a true gentleman in my book.  My husband calls me a southern sympathizer.  I am not.  It wasn't because I thought their cause was just, because it wasn't. Slavery was despicable.  I think it was because of the utter destruction that befell them.  They lost a way of life that had been theirs for 200+ yrs. It was complete annihilation.  MM made me feel the total loss those people must have felt.  She put me in Scarlett's, and Melanie's shoes. That is the way you are supposed to feel after reading a book.  They open your eyes as to the way other people deal, or did deal, with life.


Sharon — you are quite right. Not to get off on another topic, but PC just bugs the heck out of me. At some point, even if you don't intend to, someone may end up offended or insulted. But banning things isn't the way to go. Look — as an opera lover, it took me literally YEARS to bring myself to finally listen to anything by Richard Wagner. Then I heard his Tannhauser on Live From the Met and found it an incredible piece of work. His Ring Cycle — well, it's LOL long that's for sure and I've never listened to Gotterdammerung all the way through because it is a massive conclusion and in ways, it bores me whereas I really enjoy Das Rhinegold and Die Walkure. (I think Ashley spoke of Gotterdammerung and left Scarlett with one of those WTF reactions in the book). And last year I went up to Cincinnati when their opera company put on a magnificent performance of his Der Meistersinger von Nuremburg. I'm still not this huge Wagner fan, and yeah, sometimes I hear his music and automatically think of Hitler and Nazis, but I manage to find something to enjoy now and then in his work.

I do understand what you mean about the devastation of the South. I hated that most of all, and I guess part of it was again another level of the idea of Americans fighting Americans. So I get where you're coming from.

I think I remember reading that MM grew up around and also talked to Confederate veterans — you forget that the war had only ended 60 years before (give or take) she started making notes and working on GWTW. Many of these men were likely teens when they enlisted. She also may have talked to the widows and children of those that survived Sherman's March. But she got first-hand observations, the way I did when my grandparents told me of their lives through the Depression and World War II. That's what makes GWTW live — it's about the people, whether we love them or despise them and she captures the Old South as beautifully as Dickens did Victorian England, Austen her Regency era, or Tolstoy his Russia.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 11, 2011
6:25 pm
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La Belle Creole said:


LOL … Isn't there a part of you that just cringes?   I have an adult niece who's engaged and I'm STILL a bit ambivalent about her approaching wedding.  She's almost 19 and I think that's just too young.  I know I was nowhere near prepared for marriage at age 19. 


I know that Kentucky gets made fun of for having “child brides” but I don't know how common this is in the 21st century and we do have an age of consent as well as a minimum age for marriage. But back in the “old days” it wasn't unheard of. My grandmother's older sister was TWELVE when she got married — but my great-aunt remained in love with her husband, had about 10 or 12 kids and never regretted it. But you're talking say 1917! That's almost like us discussing Tudor times! LOL

When I read a biography on Margaret (I think the co-written one, one of the author's may be named Underwood), it suddenly hit me full force that this girl of 12 was married to a man literally twice her age, and this man then did something not even the Church approved of (considering the bride's “tender age”) — he consummated the marriage! And this child-bride nearly died giving birth to her own child. That is one of the elements in the life of Edmund Tudor that just makes me want to shake something, but I digress.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 11, 2011
6:27 pm
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TinaII2None said:

Sharon said:

This book is Epic!  It's just too bad that some people had to stick their nose in and say it was not pc.  That really gets me!  As you said, Tina, MM was writing about “her” South.  Take it or leave it. If people don't like the way a story is told, they do not have to read it. And don't be telling me that the book is banned.  I remember how books were banned in school.  We would get the list and go right out and buy the books. 

After reading GWTW, it was a long time before I didn't want to see Sherman hung.  Come to think of it, I don't believe I have changed my mind on that score.  What a path of destruction he wrought.  I did feel sorry for the way the carpetbaggers came in and took over.  Robert E. Lee will always be a true gentleman in my book.  My husband calls me a southern sympathizer.  I am not.  It wasn't because I thought their cause was just, because it wasn't. Slavery was despicable.  I think it was because of the utter destruction that befell them.  They lost a way of life that had been theirs for 200+ yrs. It was complete annihilation.  MM made me feel the total loss those people must have felt.  She put me in Scarlett's, and Melanie's shoes. That is the way you are supposed to feel after reading a book.  They open your eyes as to the way other people deal, or did deal, with life.


Sharon — you are quite right. Not to get off on another topic, but PC just bugs the heck out of me. At some point, even if you don't intend to, someone may end up offended or insulted. But banning things isn't the way to go. Look — as an opera lover, it took me literally YEARS to bring myself to finally listen to anything by Richard Wagner. Then I heard his Tannhauser on Live From the Met and found it an incredible piece of work. His Ring Cycle — well, it's LOL long that's for sure and I've never listened to Gotterdammerung all the way through because it is a massive conclusion and in ways, it bores me whereas I really enjoy Das Rhinegold and Die Walkure. (I think Ashley spoke of Gotterdammerung and left Scarlett with one of those WTF reactions in the book). And last year I went up to Cincinnati when their opera company put on a magnificent performance of his Der Meistersinger von Nuremburg. I'm still not this huge Wagner fan, and yeah, sometimes I hear his music and automatically think of Hitler and Nazis, but I manage to find something to enjoy now and then in his work.
I do understand what you mean about the devastation of the South. I hated that most of all, and I guess part of it was again another level of the idea of Americans fighting Americans. So I get where you're coming from.

I think I remember reading that MM grew up around and also talked to Confederate veterans — you forget that the war had only ended 60 years before (give or take) she started making notes and working on GWTW. Many of these men were likely teens when they enlisted. She also may have talked to the widows and children of those that survived Sherman's March. But she got first-hand observations, the way I did when my grandparents told me of their lives through the Depression and World War II. That's what makes GWTW live — it's about the people, whether we love them or despise them and she captures the Old South as beautifully as Dickens did Victorian England, Austen her Regency era, or Tolstoy his Russia.


I think, for better or worse, it's best to accept the Antebellum years for what they were.  Like any other era, it has it beauty and it has its ugliness.  In any romanticized work, the beauty of the period is intended to be emphasized. 

Taken for what it is, GWTW is a fantastic book. 

April 11, 2011
6:28 pm
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La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

I'm effectively behind…better pick up my copy and start reading tonight! 😀


I have a copy.  Let me kinow when you are ready and I'll begin then. 


With Borders closing downtown, I have no nearby bookstores (I do drive, but don't own a car so I ride the bus most of the time), so I'm going to need to order mine through Amazon. Considering all the gift card credits I have built up with them, I'm going to try to get my order in tonight before I head into work.

Don't leave me behind guys! Laugh

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 11, 2011
6:53 pm
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TinaII2None said:


With Borders closing downtown, I have no nearby bookstores (I do drive, but don't own a car so I ride the bus most of the time), so I'm going to need to order mine through Amazon. Considering all the gift card credits I have built up with them, I'm going to try to get my order in tonight before I head into work.
Don't leave me behind guys! Laugh


Just placed my order on Amazon — got GWTW in paperback along with a salad spinner and a lettuce preserving container. Confused

Okay, so the salad spinner and the lettuce preserver have nothing to do with GWTW but it's something I've been wanting and I was trying to get my $25 free shipping! LOL Book should arrive next week although I've known Amazon orders to get to me much sooner, so here's hoping I'll be able to start pretty soon. (In the meantime, I have another book I can start while I'm waiting).

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 11, 2011
6:57 pm
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La Belle Creole said:


I think, for better or worse, it's best to accept the Antebellum years for what they were.  Like any other era, it has it beauty and it has its ugliness.  In any romanticized work, the beauty of the period is intended to be emphasized. 

Taken for what it is, GWTW is a fantastic book. 

 _______________________________________________________________________________________

You're right about that! We all have a great passion for the Tudor era, but under all the velvets and satins and jewels is a realism I doubt many of us would want to deal with if we had our druthers. God knows I'd rather read about the Tudor court than actually be a part of it!

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 11, 2011
7:05 pm
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

I'm effectively behind…better pick up my copy and start reading tonight! 😀


I have a copy.  Let me kinow when you are ready and I'll begin then. 


With Borders closing downtown, I have no nearby bookstores (I do drive, but don't own a car so I ride the bus most of the time), so I'm going to need to order mine through Amazon. Considering all the gift card credits I have built up with them, I'm going to try to get my order in tonight before I head into work.
Don't leave me behind guys! Laugh


OK.  I am going to wait until everyone participating indicates they've got a book.  Laugh

April 11, 2011
7:09 pm
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:


I think, for better or worse, it's best to accept the Antebellum years for what they were.  Like any other era, it has it beauty and it has its ugliness.  In any romanticized work, the beauty of the period is intended to be emphasized. 

Taken for what it is, GWTW is a fantastic book. 

 _______________________________________________________________________________________

You're right about that! We all have a great passion for the Tudor era, but under all the velvets and satins and jewels is a realism I doubt many of us would want to deal with if we had our druthers. God knows I'd rather read about the Tudor court than actually be a part of it!


I have very mixed feelings about Tudor England.  Henry VIII is an absolute creep IMHO.  But … I mean think of it.  This was the Renaissance!  The arts were flourishing.  Philosophers and scientists were experiementing with new theories and ideas.  It was an extremely volatile and exciting time. 

If I lived then, though, I would not want to be female.  Women just had it so bad then.

April 11, 2011
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After I finish catching up on my stories on my DVR (read: the British and American versions of Being Human), I'm going to pick up GWTW and get started tonight I think.

And, btw, they totally did NOT just kill off the character of Mitchell on the BBC version!!!  WTH?!

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 11, 2011
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Anyanka
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TinaII2None said:

La Belle Creole said:

MegC said:

I'm effectively behind…better pick up my copy and start reading tonight! 😀


I have a copy.  Let me kinow when you are ready and I'll begin then.
 


With Borders closing downtown, I have no nearby bookstores (I do drive, but don't own a car so I ride the bus most of the time), so I'm going to need to order mine through Amazon. Considering all the gift card credits I have built up with them, I'm going to try to get my order in tonight before I head into work.
 

Don't leave me behind guys! Laugh


I feel your pain. The closest bookshop to me which has anything more than a token selection of English books is over an hour's drikve away.

I sometimes feel I'm keeping Amazon.ca in business

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
6:46 am
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Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.

It's always bunnies.

April 12, 2011
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Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.


If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.

As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).

"We mustn't let our passions destroy our dreams…"

April 12, 2011
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MegC said:

Anyanka said:

Nit-pick time….Rhett refers to Queen Victoria as “the fat Dutch woman” , she was in fact half German on her mother's side and a descendant of the German house of Hanover on her father's side.


If information was not going to directly and immediately benefit Rhett Butler, he didn't care enough to know it.  I think the point that Mitchell is sort of in a round-about way making in that is that the only “royalty” that Rhett and Scarlett and the like cared about were the upper-crust Southern type.  None of the rest mattered.  And, interestingly, there were distinctions drawn even amongst the Southern cities.  Savannah and Charleston were very old cities and more associated with “old” money whereas Atlanta had more “new” money.  I think Mitchell even mentions at one point that Atlanta was sort of looked down upon by the older cities because of its youth.
As a side note (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), but I have heard that the reason why Sherman did not burn Savannah is that when he got there, he was so struck by its beauty that he couldn't bring himself to do it.  Or maybe it was more advantageous for him to leave it intact since Savannah is the only port city in an otherwise landlocked state (which is probably more the case than the former).


That's true about Sherman.  He did not burn Savannah.  They say it was because he thought it was a gorgeous city.  But he had already brought Georgia to its knees.  He had made his point.  What a guy! And I mean this in the worst possible way, Bless his heart.

April 12, 2011
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La Belle Creole said:

 


I have very mixed feelings about Tudor England.  Henry VIII is an absolute creep IMHO.  But … I mean think of it.  This was the Renaissance!  The arts were flourishing.  Philosophers and scientists were experiementing with new theories and ideas.  It was an extremely volatile and exciting time. 

If I lived then, though, I would not want to be female.  Women just had it so bad then.


What's that line Scarlett says to Mammy as she chokes down the breakfast before the Wilkes barbecue? “I don't know why a girl has to be so silly to get a husband?” or something like that. She then comments about when they were in the North, she didn't see the Yankee girls pulling the stupid act (but as Mammy told her, no Yankee girls would be at the barbecue LOL).

And somehow I managed to find a similarity between Tudor England and GWTW! LOLLaugh

Oh it was a fascinating time, but I probably wouldn't have had the great luck to have been born into a family where I received an excellent education (as did Katherine of Aragon and Mary; Anne Boleyn or Katherine Parr; Elizabeth and Jane Gray, or Margaret Beaufort). And even those women didn't have it all so good, especially if they had the misfortune of having Henry VIII as a husband. Jane gets mistreated by both her parents, gets traded off to Thomas Seymour as a ward, is forced into marriage with Guildford Dudley, then ends up as she did. Elizabeth is hounded for years to marry because a woman couldn't possibly rule all by herself…”poor little helpless thing.”

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

April 12, 2011
9:24 am
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Anyanka said:


I feel your pain. The closest bookshop to me which has anything more than a token selection of English books is over an hour's drikve away.
I sometimes feel I'm keeping Amazon.ca in business


I know I'm keeping Amazon.com going! LOL But it's usually the place for me to find the most reasonably priced books…other than the half-off book and music store, which is going to have a limited selection.

When Borders was going out of business downtown (and that's where I lucked up and found the Elizabeth Tudor Vampire Hunter novel at a reasonable price), I went in hoping to find some great deals since their inventory was 20, 30 and 40% off at the time. Even then it was more than my budget could take. I found a huge selection of cookbooks and DVDs for Alton Brown's Good Eats series — and even with 25% off it was going to run me about $30 each. I decided to pass.

Henry: Mistress Anne, will you teach the king of England how they dance in the French court?
Anne: There is nothing that France can teach England, your majesty.
King Henry VIII: Well said. Well said.
– Anne of the Thousand Days (1969)

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