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Who Ordered The French Executioner?
January 8, 2010
2:16 pm
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Hannah
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I just checked back through the threads, and I couldn`t find this, but apologies if it has come up before.

Just a quick question really. I was wondering who's idea it was to bring in the executioner of Calais, did Anne request it herself, or did Henry take the initiative (always one to make the ladies feel \”special\”!)? 

Because recently, I`ve been thinking about the difference in treatment of Anne and Katherine Howard. As we all know, Anne had an expert swordsman brought in from France, guaranteed to do the job swiftly, expertly and (or so they believed), painlessly. Whereas Katherine Howard, largely believed to be guilty, got the plain old English block and axe. Why the difference in treatment? A guilty conscience, perhaps?

Be daly prove you shalle me fynde,nTo be to you bothe lovyng and kynde,

January 8, 2010
3:08 pm
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Claire
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Hi Hannah,

Alison Weir writes about this in her book \”Lady in the Tower\”. She states that Henry VIII ordered the French swordsman from Calais and although Friedmann mentions in his book that Anne may have request this style of execution, there are no contemporary records to support this theory. Also, for the swordsman to reach London from Calais by the original planned date of execution (18th), he would have had to have left Calais before Anne's trial had even taken place – the 14th at the latest and perhaps even as early as the 12th. Weir writes of how The Spanish Chronicle states that Henry \”sent a week before to St Omer for a headsman, and nine days after they sent, he arrived\” which suggests that the swordsman arrived on the 18th/early 19th and that he was sent for on the 9th/10th.

So, Anne would not have requested the swordsman seeing as she hadn't even be tried yet and Weir thinks that Henry may have used the idea of a swifter and more merciful death as a bargaining tool to get Anne to agree to the annulment of their marriage.

You make an interesting point about the difference in execution methods between Anne and Catherine H and perhaps this was because Anne had been crowned Queen, whereas Catherine never had a coronation, or because Henry wanted to use the sword style death as a bargaining tool with Anne but had no need to bargain with Catherine. Another reason could be that Anne was the mother of Henry's daughter, Elizabeth, and Henry recognised this. Yet another reason may be that Henry wanted to show Europe that he was being merciful to Anne, even though she had betrayed him, but just wasn't bothered by what people thought when it came to Catherine!

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 8, 2010
10:25 pm
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Hannah
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I guess, too, that Henry felt so betrayed by Katherine Howard that he was in no mood to grant her special favours. For a moment there, I thought Henry might`ve had a conscience afterall. Silly me!

Be daly prove you shalle me fynde,nTo be to you bothe lovyng and kynde,

January 9, 2010
2:51 am
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Impish_Impulse
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No, he was a bastard through and through. He knew a swordsman had been sent for even before her trial, but left Anne dangling in suspense for a day or so wondering if she'd be burned at the stake or 'merely' beheaded. And since we know Anne was a bit obsessed about some prophecy about \”an English queen being burnt at about this time\” and whether that prophecy referred to her, this was doubly cruel of him.

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          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 9, 2010
5:23 pm
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Claire
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Yes, leaving Anne to worry (go out of her mind more like) and perhaps using it as a bargaining chip, when he had it planned all along, just shows what kind of man he was. It's episodes like this that really make me argue with people who label Henry as \”great\”.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 9, 2010
5:51 pm
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Hannah
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Wasn`t there more to the delays than that, though? It wasn`t entirely malicious, but I can`t remember where I`d read about this now.

Be daly prove you shalle me fynde,nTo be to you bothe lovyng and kynde,

January 9, 2010
6:13 pm
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Claire
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There were delays with the execution due to the French swordsman not arriving and also because of a crowd which had formed outside the Tower but Henry did hold off announcing to Anne that she would die by the sword, rather than at the stake or by axe, when he knew full well that a swordsman had been ordered.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 9, 2010
6:33 pm
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Hannah
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Claire said:

There were delays with the execution due to the French swordsman not arriving and also because of a crowd which had formed outside the Tower but Henry did hold off announcing to Anne that she would die by the sword, rather than at the stake or by axe, when he knew full well that a swordsman had been ordered.


Ah right. So he did leave her to sweat. Didn`t Anne also believe that she would eventually be given a reprieve? I`ve read that in several places, also.

Be daly prove you shalle me fynde,nTo be to you bothe lovyng and kynde,

January 9, 2010
6:58 pm
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Claire
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Some people believe that she did think that she would be reprieved if she agreed to the annulment but I think that Anne knew Henry well and knew he wouldn't back down. She'd seen him have people he loved executed before, people like Thomas More who was a close friend for many years.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 10, 2010
8:57 am
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Jasmine
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An interesting point – if Anne's marriage was annulled because of a pre-contract, then she had never been legally married to Henry.  Therefore she could not have committed treason by adultery because she was not married to the king.

Why did Henry feel the need to have the marriage annulled?  He was going to be free of \”all\” wives by her execution and Katherine's death, so his next wife would be unchallenged as a legal wife.

January 10, 2010
9:03 am
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Claire said:

Some people believe that she did think that she would be reprieved if she agreed to the annulment but I think that Anne knew Henry well and knew he wouldn't back down. She'd seen him have people he loved executed before, people like Thomas More who was a close friend for many years.


And the day's delay meant that Anne had been up for 2 days by the time she walked to the scaffold. Small wonder some witnesses described her as dazed and looking about in confusion (or looking behind her hoping for a last-minute pardon) as she went. I think that's where the rumor came from that she'd been in hope of a reprieve until the last minute. They conflated two events – rumors that Anne had been falsely given hope of being sent to a nunnery on the European mainland in exchange for not fighting the annulment, with Anne's physical and emotional exhaustion as she walked to her death.

And of course TOBG built that rumor up into the climax of the movie, complete with Henry sending a letter to Mary (at the execution!) saying, “Nope – not gonna pardon her – neener, neener. And you can get out of my sight, too, biatch!” – Pardon my slight   dramatic license, there. Hey, if PG can do it, I can, too!  

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 10, 2010
3:52 pm
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Claire
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You should write a screenplay, Impish!! Love it!

Yes, Jasmine, it is crazy that Anne was executed for adultery if her and Henry were never married!! I think Henry just wanted to wash his hands of her and the annulment wiped away any trace of their marriage in his eyes.

I am still haunted by Anne's execution. As I said in a recent post, it was a dream about her execution that made me start The AB Files, and I still find it hard to come to terms with her execution. When we are so bombarded with violence in movies etc. and special effects, I'm not sure that people think deeply about what Anne must have gone through. To be waiting to die like that and to be thinking about your daughter's future and worrying about it, she must have been distraught and terrified. To think that an innocent woman went through all that chills me to the bone. I know that people say I get too emotional about it all sometimes but I cannot help it and I think we do need to get emotional about it, whatever we think of Anne as a person.

Ooops, got on my soapbox again lol!

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 11, 2010
2:51 am
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Impish_Impulse
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Claire said:

Ooops, got on my soapbox again lol!


That's OK, Claire, I'll drag mine over beside yours. I was never a Henry fan, due to his emotional immaturity that so often resulted in him killing those closest to him (and at best, he'd whine about how he'd been tricked into killing them). But his treatment of Anne and his utter indifference regarding what he had done to her pushed me over into full-blown hatred. The best he gets from me is a guffaw at his buffoonery or a snicker at the thought of him being haunted/pestered/tormented by his many victims. So I'll still enjoy the H8 skit you've lined up for the tour.

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 11, 2010
7:40 am
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Hannah
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 due to his emotional immaturity that so often resulted in him killing those closest to him (and at best, he'd whine about how he'd been tricked into killing them).


Thats the one thing I can`t get over with Henry. I`m not a Henry hater by any means. However, the fact that he`d execute the people closest to him, and then bitch about it. From Cardinal Wolsey (who was going to be executed, to Thomas Cromwell), he generally regretted them all, and then blamed others.

Be daly prove you shalle me fynde,nTo be to you bothe lovyng and kynde,

January 11, 2010
9:54 am
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Claire
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Should we take our soapboxes to the Tower on May 19th, Impish?!

Yes, that's what gets me about Henry too, he was completely indifferent to Anne after she'd been arrested. How can someone just flick a switch on their emotions like that??

Yes, Hannah, perhaps that was the only way that Henry could cope with all the blood on his hand, by blaming others.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 11, 2010
10:22 pm
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Impish_Impulse
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Claire said:

Post edited 10:22 am – January 11, 2010 by Claire


Should we take our soapboxes to the Tower on May 19th, Impish?!


Hmm, I wonder if that would be considered carry-on baggage, or would I have to check it in as luggage? (just kidding!)

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               "Don't knock at death's door. 

          Ring the bell and run. He hates that."    

January 12, 2010
9:36 am
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Claire
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He he! You could get a flatpack one which would fit the bottom of your suitcase!

Seriously though, I do enjoy getting on my soapbox about Anne.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

January 12, 2010
8:42 pm
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Rochie
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When you think about it, there were'nt too many last minute reprieves anyway. Does anyone know of any instances when Henry or any Tudor handed out a last minute pardon on the scaffold? There was hope for the Duke of Somerset in Edward's time, but it didn't materialise. A romantic notion – but it didn't really ever happen that much.

(just noticed the spell checker on this form – is that new? I like it.)

January 16, 2010
1:42 am
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ipaud
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Hi Ladies,

If we don't get up on those soapboxes, the old myths (and some new ones in recent books!) will  get legs.

The events of May 1536 will always play on my mind and I have written about my experiences last May 19th in the Tower.If I could time travel, this is the year I would go to, I have so many questions and things that I do not understand. What little respect that I might hold for Henry, is the respect and dedication that Anne had for Henry up to her last minute on this earth. There is no doubt that Henry's actions were at best manic. There are so many contradictions in the way the trial played out and what Henry wanted and got.However, even for Henry,  his behavior is not rational. All through Henry's Marriages, he was in other relationships, from what I have read, this included all his time in the relationship with Anne. In Henry's warped way of thinking. he loved Anne regardless and the evidence is there of this.  We have discussed the change of attitude in Henry before on the forum, regarding his jousting accident where he was in a coma and returned a different and bitter man.I think that the events around this time are of most importance to Anne's demise. What was said to Henry about Anne and by whom? If I was to go with a hunch, I think that it was Cromwell and the faction of court close to him. It would also be my hunch that Cromwell suggested the swordsman.

As for next 19th of May, you know that I won't let you out of my sight in the Tower Claire and we will all get trough the day together.

If it was not this, then it would be something else?

January 16, 2010
9:58 am
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Claire
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It will be a wonderful day at the Tower but I think I will need to take a big box of tissues! I know people think it's silly to get so emotional and passionate about someone who died over 400 years ago but I won't apologise for getting emotional about such a tragic miscarriage of justice. What a waste of six lives!

I so want to understand Henry, how he ticked and what drove him, but I find it impossible. As you say, Paudie, his behaviour was completely \”manic\” and he seemed to be able to just turn his emotions off at the flick of a switch. It's not just his treatment of Anne that I don't understand, it's his treatment of many people that he once loved so fiercely, such as More, Wolsey, Cromwell etc. The death of Thomas More I find so sad. More was such an influence on Henry and a real friend to him and Henry let him down. I know that Henry felt he had to act against those who would not support his remarriage and his supremacy but More was not a trouble maker or stirrer and always showed Henry the greatest respect. So sad.

Perhaps Cromwell did advise Henry about the sword, perhaps he thought it would be a good move politically to show Anne a little mercy.

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn

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