When was Anne Boleyn born? | Anne Boleyn | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
When was Anne Boleyn born?
May 21, 2013
8:19 pm
Avatar
Annika
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
May 21, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It has been debated whether Anne was born in 1501 or 1507. It seems most historians today believe she was born in 1501, which is based on the assumption that she couldn’t have been only 6 years old when she joined the court of Margaret of Austria (1513). What do you think?

May 21, 2013
10:20 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

We can’t be really sure to be honest I have heard myself that she went with Mary Tudor (H8 sister) to France. If this is true or not there is no way of really knowing. If we take Anne’s date of Birth as 1507 she would have been 6. if 1501 then she would have been 1 almost 13 when she went to France. I ‘m inclined to think that 6 would be a little too young to be taken on as a maid in waiting, but then having said that it wasn’t uncommon for young girls to be married and living in their in laws homes. The little Queen namely Isabella of France who married Richard 2nd was only 9 I believe when she came over to live in England. I believe that Anne’s date of birth would have been around 1503, which would have made her about 10 when she went to France.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 22, 2013
11:46 am
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I’m inclined to say 1501 – it’s to do with the letter that she sent to her father from Margaret of Burgundy’s court. Her handwriting in that is similar to her handwriting in the book of hours that she and Henry wrote in (the writing in the book of hours is faded but the strokes of risers and descenders and the shapes of ‘n’s and ‘o’s are the same). If she had only been six at the time I don’t think it her handwriting would have been that advanced. (Unless 15th Century tutors had a way of getting children to write like adults!)

May 22, 2013
5:43 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2119
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I go with the 1501 date also. Anne was at the court of Margaret of Austria when Thomas Boleyn sent a letter asking that she be released to travel to the French court to be in Mary Tudor’s household. If I remember correctly , he was a bit embarrassed that he had to remove her so soon from Margaret’s care. Margaret had written to Thomas telling him what a delight Anne was. During the time she was with Margaret, Anne did write a letter to her father and I agree with Anne fan, it wasn’t written by the hand of a six year old. Anne was not on the list of women traveling with Mary Tudor to France from England. Her sister Mary’s name was. I don’t think there is a date for Anne’s arrival in France.

May 22, 2013
6:47 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Totally agree about the letters that Anne penned to her father during her time in France, no way could a child of 6 write a letter in such a way, and bear in mind that writing with a quill pen isn’t that easy. Could a child of 6 be that proficient in quill penmenship? I doubt it. However it might be that the letter was written for her by the person who was teaching her to write.
Why was Anne so abuptly brought back to England anyway? France and England were always at loggerheads over something during Henry’s reign and it was usually down to jealously. Henry being jealous of Francis or vice versa, basically two bulls bashing heads in order to get oneupmanship on each other. But the Archduchess Margaret was really not involved much with France, other than the fact her Stepmother Anne of Brittany had married, Margeret’s father Maximillian who she had been forced to renounce and was married to Charles V111 of France, who was at one time betrothed to Margaret.
I wonder was it perhaps something to do with the alledged behaviour of her sister Mary Boleyn that prompted Thomas Boleyn to Bring Anne home before any more scandal could blacken the family name? I don’t believe Mary B had an affair with King Francis, although there may have been perhaps some flirtation between them. The English Mare slur I believe was said to Henry by Francis as he wanted to rub it in his face a bit that whilst Henry was stuck with an aging slack bodied past her prime and childbearing wife, with no son to follow him only a daughter, he Francis had sons a plenty from his Queen and he could have any woman he pleased from any country too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 23, 2013
5:58 pm
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Wasn’t her recall from France to do with trying to sort out the Ormonde inheritance by marrying Anne off to the Butler heir? Or have I skipped a couple of years?

Her call to leave Flanders and go to France was probably politics – Henry was marrying his sister to the French king, so France was in favour and the Empire out of favour. Wolsey’s policy, if I remember correctly, was to use England to tip the balance of power between France and the Empire.

May 23, 2013
7:49 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2119
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

You are talking about when Anne returned from France, right Boleyn? She had been in France since 1514 or early 1515 and was recalled in late 1521. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you? That isn’t an abrupt recall. She was 19 and was being called home at this time because of the betrothal her father was trying to set up for her.
Mary Tudor needed attendants who could speak fluent French and Anne was fluent. Thomas was embarrassed to ask for Anne’s sudden removal from Margaret’s court, and he did this because of Henry’s sudden turnabout in abandoning the marriage between Mary and the Archduke Charles. At this time Mary Boleyn was on her way to France with Mary Tudor.
I don’t think Francis ever called Mary the English Mare. That would be more cruel than Francis is known to have been to his legion of ladies. I can’t imagine Francis saying this to Henry at the Field of Gold. That would be quite an insult to an English woman of Henry’s court, I would think. I can’t imagine Henry wanting Francis’ leavings either. The fact that this comes from Nicolas Sander makes me think it is bull.
This is an article that Claire wrote about this:
http://www.theanneboleynfiles……francis-i/

May 24, 2013
6:36 pm
Avatar
Boleyn
Kent.
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2285
Member Since:
January 3, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes Sharon. I don’t know why I thought Anne was recalled in haste but for some reason I believed that due to Mary’s alleged scandaless behaviour Thomas B thought it prudent to bring both girls home..
I totally agree about the slur the English mare I don’t believe for a second that King Frances said that. He may have said something like “Mary B is a right tart” or something like that. But if that was true or not the fact remains that poor Mary’s name was blackened enough for her to be known as the great whore.
Francis and Henry’s relationship was a mixed bag of issues. They were both extremely jealous of each other, and would do or say anything to get oneupmanship on each other too. The Val Dor was nothing more than a battle of wits and wills to see who was the best.
Would Francis insult the woman at Henry’s court? Hmm maybe? I do know that when K.H’s behaviour became known , Francis sent a message to Henry stating that he was sorry to hear of the Queen’s wanton and naughty behaviour, that could well be constued as an insult and i believe that Henry certaibnly took it that way and I believe dismissed the French ambassador from the court for a while.
Am I right in thinking that Anne railed against the proposed Ormonde marriage? and why were those marriage plans dropped? Surely Thomas wouldn’t have sent for Anne to come home if the plans for this marriage were in their infancy, they must have all been decided upon all bar the dotted I’s and the crossed T’s?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 24, 2013
7:50 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2119
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

We really don’t know where Mary was after Mary Tudor returned home in 1515. She may have returned to England or she may have been sent elsewhere to finish her education. She was home in 1520 to marry Carey. The reason Mary is known as the great whore is because a French bishop said so in 1536 when any and all Catholics were crucifying all Boleyns. And Sander came along years later and added his two cents.
I haven’t seen the letter from Francis to Henry about KH, but that made me laugh. I have read a bit about Francis and his historian says he would not have ever betrayed a woman he had been with. He loved them all. A general statement I know, but I just see him as someone who wouldn’t hurt a woman’s reputation, even an Englishwoman’s. On the other hand, however, he would have no qualms about making Henry sound like a complete fool. Wink
I have to look it up again, but I think Norfolk and Wolsey held up the plans for the Ormond marriage after Anne was already home.

May 25, 2013
4:48 pm
Avatar
Anne fan
Leicestershire
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 123
Member Since:
February 10, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

According to Ives it seems (he says what happened isn’t clear) that Thomas Boleyn held the marriage up after Anne had returned home. Ives thinks that Boleyn was holding out because he wanted the title of Earl of Ormonde to pass to him instead of Piers Butler and then descend to the joint Butler-Boleyn heirs.

By the time a compromise was reached – TB got the title, the disputed lands in name but rented out to the Butlers for very low rents and the Earldom of Ossory given to the Butlers, Henry had already determined to marry Anne.

May 28, 2013
5:36 pm
Avatar
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 2119
Member Since:
February 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This has come up before in our discussions. Here is what I wrote:
Surrey, Thomas Howard, suggested to Wolsey that James might marry Anne and unite the warring clans. He loathed Ireland and knew Henry would soon tire of a problem which he did not have the resources or interest to solve. There was a lack of enthusiasm from Thomas Boleyn. It was Surrey being Surrey. James Butler was being brought up-or kept as hostage-in Wolsey’s household. Anne, Surrey’s niece, was of an age to marry. What better way to solve the problem of the title than to have these two marry? It would have made Ormonde dependent on Henry. Surrey goes to Ireland and soon Ormonde becomes Surrey’s right hand man. By 1520 the earl had gotten the Irish council to propose the match to Henry.

Surrey reminds Wolsey about the proposal. He keeps up the campaign by sending a draft of an Act for the Irish parliament, recognizing Butler (Ormonde) as head of his family. And then nothing happened for nine months. The marriage talk resurfaced in 1521. Surrey appealed for approval of the Act in Butler’s favor and asked for the return of James to his father.

Butler started haggling for the return of his son and the completion of the marriage to Anne. Wolsey who had been in Calais at a European peace conference advised Henry in mid-November that James was too valuable a hostage to surrender. Soon after that Anne must have been recalled from France. But Wolsey for the first time, but not for the last time, did not ‘perfect’ marriage for Anne.

In 1523 Piers Butler, James’ father, is trying to bind nobles to support him against the Boleyn claim. If true, Butler gave up hope of a settlement by marriage, presumably because Boleyn made difficulties. What Anne’s father was standing out for was the earldom of Ormonde, and her marriage was a lever to that end.

It took until 1528 to make progress by way of compromise. The Butler staking the disputed lands on a long lease at moderate rents, in return for surrendering the Ormonde title and instead taking the earldom of Ossory. The last piece in the settlement for the earldom took place in December, 1529 and Wolsey had already fallen out of favor. Ives claims that Wolsey was none too pleased at the way events had gone against him and once again delayed Boleyn to teach him who was in charge.

Long before that, however, Henry’s interest in Anne had become obvious. Ives says it seems curious that Wolsey should have taken it upon himself to ‘perfect’ Anne’s marriage in 1521 without consulting her father when they were together in Calais. It is possible that Wolsey never intended a match between James and Anne to be anything other than a long-term inducement to the Butler’s to behave.

James Butler returned to Ireland in the summer of 1526. He returned in 1528 and by this time the king had declared himself, and Anne was no longer on the marriage market.

Information taken from Eric Ives’ book, The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn.

So, Norfolk first brought up the marriage between Anne and Butler. It was his idea, not Thomas’.

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 214

Currently Online:
10 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Anyanka: 2345

Boleyn: 2285

Sharon: 2119

Bella44: 934

DuchessofBrittany: 847

Mya Elise: 782

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 0

Members: 426009

Moderators: 0

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 13

Topics: 1696

Posts: 23623

Newest Members:

Wayne, Louiss, sadamalam646, MagnusJ, oliverwright, Safarao

Administrators: Claire: 998