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11:28 am
February 24, 2010
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It seems the dislike began in France. Anne did not much care for Mary either. I recently read that Anne may not have approved of the relationship between Mary and Charles in France. Did something happen between Anne and Mary in France? Or…Did the animosity begin when Henry set aside Katherine for Anne?
12:31 pm
January 27, 2010
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I've often wondered this too. It always seemed deeply hypocritical of Mary to dislike Anne for taking Katherine's place when she married a 'commoner' herself. I assume there were more reasons than that.
4:28 pm
October 11, 2009
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I think that since Anne was Mary's lady in waiting in France, she saw her as little more than a servant, and considered her project of becoming queen the same way a modern socialite of an old family would consider the wedding of an heir and a cleaning lady. When it came to her own wedding, she certainly presented Charles Brandon as Henry's best friend and companion, not his servant. In her mind, you could marry a commoner as long as he or she didn't had to deal with your dirty linen, or your relative's. The fact that she had a good relation with Katherine didn't help too. And maybe Anne witnessed something something in France,or disapproved the wedding with Suffolk: Mary's problem wasn't what had been witnessed or judged, it was that the new queen gained the possibility of rubbing her royal Tudorish nose in it, whatever it was.
11:02 am
August 3, 2010
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I've read, in a few different places, that Mary Brandon (nee Tudor) was close to Catherine of Aragon, and therefore disliked Anne. She did not show proper respect, and often begged illness to be excused from Anne's events. She stayed loyal to Catherine and never acknowledged Anne as Queen. She quietly lived in the country with her husband, Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, and their children.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
1:45 pm
July 25, 2010
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I would really like to read this thread, but the forum walls are cutting off the text 🙁 what's going on?!
I have seen theim gentill, tame, and meke, that nowe are wyld, and do not remembre…
6:46 am
July 9, 2009
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Um, BoleynFan, I don't mean to be rude but could you change your signature picture? It appears to be the cause of the forum cutting off text at the side. Thanks.
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
4:05 pm
August 3, 2010
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I said that I think the core of Mary's dislike for Anne was because of Mary's love for Catherine of Aragon. I still think that was a part of it, but also, I read in 'The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn' by Eric Ives (best non-fic Anne book EVER!) that, when Mary and Charles Brandon married secretly and caused the scandal in France, Anne was a contemptuous, saucy maid smirking at them because she had seen the heavy flirtations of Brandon and Regent Margaret of Austria not that long ago. Just wanted to add this 
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
4:42 pm
July 9, 2009
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Great point, BoleynFan!
Ainsi sera, groigne qui groigne.
8:39 am
June 19, 2009
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Very interesting on Suffolk and Margret of Austria. Mary did not have the same attitude to her new husband, who after all was the son of a servant of her fathers and educated with Henry from a very young age.
Had Anne just taken the position as one of Henry's little secret Lovers, would there have been a hint of respect? Henry turned many unwritten rules of society upside down, thus allowing Anne to rise. I see both women as strong personalities but to Mary's point of view, maybe she saw Henry pander to Anne's wishes, where she had to do as commanded by her brother.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
8:22 am
August 3, 2010
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Good point, ipaud. I read that Mary was very sisterly and close to Henry, so maybe she was also jealous? Especially since Anne was young and alluring, whereas Catherine of Aragon was less of a rival for Henry's affections, in Mary's eyes.
And yes, Mary didn't have the same attitude towards Brandon! I believe it was a love match, and I think Mary deserved happiness after being wed to an old, decrepit Frenchman who didn't speak her language!
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
11:05 am
February 24, 2010
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Mary must have known Anne was not too keen about her secret marriage to Charles to have such a dislike for her while they were in France. Anne was only 13 or 14 at the time. She must have said or done something to really anger Mary. A servant shouldn't have an opinion, I guess. Mary did side with Katherine in the divorce out of love for her. They had been together since Mary was a child. But the icing on the cake, I believe, happened when Henry replaced Mary with Anne as his favorite. How dare he? That spot had always been Mary's.
I too believe Brandon and Mary were in love. I think they had been since her childhood. I love that about them. Because they had been together for so long, I don't think Mary gave a moments thought to Brandon being a mere servant. She would not have thought of him in that way. I don't think Henry ever thought of him in that way either. Henry's anger was because he couldn't marry her off again to another old decrepit ruler.
3:07 pm
June 19, 2009
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Was Henry angry at Brandon for marrying his sister without his consent or maybe at Mary for marrying his best friend behind his back? Mary was a Tudor and would have been well versed in “payback” and he was “owed” for Louis XII. Not many dared to or got one over on Henry and lived to tell the tale.
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
5:34 am
August 3, 2010
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Yes, Henry was angry at both Brandon and Mary for a while, but since Mary was his sister and Brandon his favorite friend he eventually forgave them. Before he did, they were not allowed to come back to England.
"Grumble all you like, this is how it's going to be"
9:01 am
February 24, 2010
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Yes, Henry was angry. I think his anger stemmed from the secrecy of the marriage and the potential loss of Mary's dowry. Charles was sent to France after Louis died and was ordered to negotiate Mary's return home with as much of her dowry and jewelry as possible. Henry also extracted a promise from Charles not to propose to Mary. Henry wanted Mary back on the marriage market. With the aid of Francis, Mary and Charles were married. There are many letters which flew back and forth between Charles, Mary, Henry and Wolsey. Charles asked Wolsey to help them. It was a very good thing that Mary was Henry's favorite sister and Charles was his best friend. It took months of grovelling and many bribes before Henry allowed the married couple to return home. Mary finally signed over her dowry to Henry. She also managed to smuggle the Mirror of Naples out of France to Henry. (a diamond with a great pearl) After Mary gave up all the plate and all the jewels, Henry forgave them and they returned home. They were married publicly at Greenwich on May 13th 1515.
The “theft” of the Mirror of Naples rankled Francis for years. To rub it in, it was said that Henry wore it pinned to his cap at the Field of Cloth of Gold. You have to love that!
10:03 am
June 19, 2009
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Wow Sharon, you are a mine of information, does the “Mirror of Naples” still exist? Of course Henry would have to wear it to the “Field of cloth of Gold”…
Francis could have done with it or any advantage, having seen his portrait in Hampton Court!
If it was not this, then it would be something else?
11:07 am
February 24, 2010
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I cannot find any info on the diamonds survival. Only that it may have been cut down and used in other royal jewels. The diamond was the size of a finger and the pearl was the size of a pigeon's egg. Queen Claude demanded the jewel be returned. I'll bet Henry got a good laugh out of that.
Mary and Charles' relationship has always fascinated me. A princess , at that time in history, never had a chance to fall in love. From the cradle, they were told who they would marry. If the man died, they were remarried with little or no choice in the matter. The fact that Mary and Charles were in love and got away with secretly marrying …with Henry VIII as their King…well that's just so damn romantic.
There is not too much that I can find in the way of books about Mary and her sister Margaret, (who also married for love the second time and possibly the third time) but over my vacation I did read, Sisters To The King, by Maria Perry. It's all fresh in my memory. Hence all the info.
Poor Henry didn't seem to have any control over these two women in his life. Mary was his favorite. Margaret was more like him than he would ever admit. He was admonishing her for wanting a divorce from her second husband while he was secretly sending out feelers for info on how to divorce Katherine.
