I think Old Man Howard over estimated K.H’s abilities. I don’t know if he had any actual involvement with her education etc, or just trusted the Duchess enough to take care of that side of things. After all the Duchess had been part of Anne’s entourage, so perhaps he was hoping that some of Anne’s sparkle and wit would rub off on the Duchess and thus by association would rub off on K.H. Certainly I think K.H was as fun loving as Anne was, but unlike Anne K.H hadn’t got the finesse and polish that Anne had.
The Duchess did do what was the excepted norm for girls of that time, but was very lax and floppy when it came to protecting their modesty.

It must have been hard for K.H when she reached her teens, to have all her freinds bragging about what they done with sweethearts, so in order to fit in with the circle she must have felt under a lot of pressure to give in (for want of a better word) to the peer pressure that must have been. I guess K.H could be likened to a lot of today’s teens, basically to be part of the “IT” crowd you have to do what the “IT” crowd do.

I still feel that a lot of K.H’s wanton behaviour should hang heavy on the Duchess’s shoulders, if she had perhaps taken more of an interest in K.H and her sisters, she perhaps would have spotted the danger signs that K.H was being led astray by the very people who were supposed to be looking after her.

The Habsburg’s ended up very inter-married to the extent that some of them were genetically siblings rather than cousins.

Boleyn said

Maggyann said

As usual it is a real pain the old brain not knowing the definite birthdate. I tend to think of Katherine being older than we may be led to believe. The accepted miniature of her does not look to me to be of a teenaged girl for one thing and the later birthdate would have made her intrigue with Mannox happen when she were only 11 or 12 which would be rather nasty I’d say.

Edit to add

Sorry I meant to ask this before but Culpepper was he related to Katherine? Her mother was a Culpepper but possibly a different branch of the family or not attached at all, does anyone know?

I don’t really understand the relationship between Mannox and K.H. I don’t think sexual intercourse actually took place, although Mannox confessed to Joan Bulmer that he wanted to take K.H’s maidenhead, and perhaps that’s what ended the relationship between them. After all Mannox was a lowly Musician, and she the daughter of the powerful Howard Clan. So perhaps K.H did have a sence of who would be considered as exceptable given her nobel status, Mannox didn’t fit that bill. Derham was at least a gentleman, although without much standing, but would have at least been exceptable for K.H to marry. It still doesn’t excuse her behaviour however as she acted like a common jay, with reckless abandonment without so much as a second thought for her actions or their consequences.

Katherine refused to sleep with Manox.

LOL Maggyanne. You seriously made me laugh out loud.

Is it true that Cranmer when questioning Katherine pretty much tried to get her to admit to the pre-contract Derham as that would be a loophole that Cranmer could use to stop Katherine from being executed, but Katherine was either too dumb or too emotionally worked up to pick up on what Cranmer was asking of her to save her own life. This is definitely one area where Anne would have acted differently, Anne would have been cluey enough to admit a pre-contract if it meant her life would be spared.

If the story is true, it really does show that Cranmer had a level of deceny and compassion often lacking in Henry’s court.

Bill1978 said

LOL Maggyanne. You seriously made me laugh out loud.

Is it true that Cranmer when questioning Katherine pretty much tried to get her to admit to the pre-contract Derham as that would be a loophole that Cranmer could use to stop Katherine from being executed, but Katherine was either too dumb or too emotionally worked up to pick up on what Cranmer was asking of her to save her own life. This is definitely one area where Anne would have acted differently, Anne would have been cluey enough to admit a pre-contract if it meant her life would be spared.

If the story is true, it really does show that Cranmer had a level of deceny and compassion often lacking in Henry’s court.

Cranmer didn’t tell Katherine that if she said she had been pre-contracted, she would be free. He could have done that, but he was being loyal to Henry who told him not to mention that part. Had he come right out with it, he could have saved her life.
It’s too bad that Percy had denied a precontract with Anne.

Thanks Sharon, the only place I had seen Cranmer mentioning it was in one of the versions of Henry VIII And His Six Wives. Clearly it was added to make sure the audience went away thinking that Katherine was a complete idiot who couldn’t even save herself when given the opportunity. Or maybe it was meant to highlight how young and therefore clueless she was. Or it was placed in there to show Henry was tyrannical.