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After the execution...
May 21, 2014
12:03 pm
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Vivian Hester
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It has been bugging me for quite some time now: what exactly happened to Anne’s body after her execution? Did, as I have read, her ladies pick up her body and head? Was she immediately buried? Had Henry made any arrangements at all for her burial or was it just done by his servants? What happened to her things, her books, clothing, jewellery ( I reckon the crown jewels were given to Jane), anything? Was her father banished right away? And what of Elizabeth, did she stay safely at Hatfield or was she taken someplace else?And were her ladies immediately applied to Jane’s service, even though Jane wasn’t married to Henry yet?

Sorry for the load of questions, I’m just very interested and doing some research for my novel :) Since one of the main characters in the story is present with Anne in her final days and also during the execution and I kind of need to know what direction to put her in afterwards.

Anne Boleyn: just a strong woman with incredible dignity who lived in an era that didn't approve of that.

May 21, 2014
1:15 pm
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Boleyn
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Legend has it that no coffin had been arranged for her, instead on old arrow chest was hastily found which proved to be a little short so her head was tucked in under her arm. Her jewellery more especially her B necklace has been a great source of speculation.. I’m inclined to think that most of her jewellery save for a few bits, were melted down and recast. I believe some of what was left went to her sister. There was a ring that was supposed to have belonged to her which had her portrait in which somehow Elizabeth got hold of. The B Necklace I like to think is still around somewhere.
Anne Father’s did leave court but was one at court from time to time, for whatever reason. In fact he was a candle bearer at Edward’s christening, but for the most part I think he kept well out of sight and mind.
However there is a rumour that Anne’s body was not buried in St Peter ad Vincula (roughly translated Peter in Chains) in the tower grounds, but was laid in the church until a cart could be found to take her body to a church near her home in Hever and that she is actually buried there. The name of the church escapes me at the moment. I think it’s St Mary’s or something.
I don’t think it’s true, but it makes a pretty story.
The Victorians who excavated under the altar in St Peter’s were pretty certain that both of H8’s executed Queens were there, as was poor old hapless Jane Boleyn. Yet another one of histories bad properganda victims. A lonely woman caught up in the tangled web of H8 life and died for it.

Elizabeth was a very astute little girl for her age, she recognised something was different on the day of her mother’s execution. As she was playing up or something, and Lady Bryan said “Come now Lady Elizabeth this is no way to behave.” Elizabeth replied “Mayhap why Lady Elizabeth, when yesterday I was Princess?”
She mostly stayed at Hatfield, although she was brought to court periodically, she only really started living at court more when K.P was on the throne. I believe she did stay with Anne of Cleves at Hever at times. Hever Castle was given to AOC as part of her divorce settlement. I wonder how Elizabeth felt to be in the very castle her mother grew up in, and where her father came a courting with Anne B?
As for Anne’s ladies, many of them simply moved on up into Jane Seymour’s household. That may sound cold, but for many court life was a safe and secure life for them, after they had a roof over their head and food in their bellies. If their home life wasn’t exactly all wine and roses life at court for them was. A woman’s role back then was to be either a wife and mother or to marry the big JC and live behind convent walls for the rest of lives. If they were married their husbands would be on the make and the only way they could do that was to be at court, if their wife was one of the Queen’s ladies there would be more chance of climbing the social ladder so to speak. Cromwell was a prime example on how to get big fast.. He was Wolsey’s lackey to start with, then when Wolsey failed to secure the divorce that H8 wanted, Wolsey went the way of the dodo and Cromwell stepped into dead man’s shoes so to speak. The courts of England may have been the best place to be but they were also the most deadly place to be too.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 21, 2014
1:26 pm
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Vivian Hester
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Thank you, that’s a great help! I think I can definitely make some intriguing story plots with these things, especially the B necklace and the burial. Such a shame we don’t know more about these things and also such a shame she didn’t get anything better. I mean, even Catherine of Aragon (Katherine? Never know for sure how it was spelled) got a proper and, we can very well say luxurious, funeral. I guess it’s because CoA hadn’t done much wrong, while Anne was pretty much hated by Henry. I really wish we could figure out whether he ever had any regrets. I was doing a presentation on him and his wives a couple days ago and my teacher asked me how he could have executed her just because she could not give him a son after everything he had gone through for her. I told her I don’t know, that he was probably some kind of autistic man whose love was all about offspring. We’ve seen this with CoA and also with Jane… if she hadn’t given him Edward, he probably would’ve gotten rid of her pretty soon. Seven months must have been a torture for her and for him. Such a pity.

Anne Boleyn: just a strong woman with incredible dignity who lived in an era that didn't approve of that.

May 21, 2014
2:56 pm
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Boleyn
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C/Katherine of Aragon was actually known as Catalina in Spain. She adopted C/Katherine to make her sound more English. and she did have some English blood in her, Via John on Gaunt’s daughter Catherine as she married into the Spanish Castillian line.

There were rumours that he was thinking of getting shot of Jane, as she took so long to get pregnant, he couldn’t afford to hang about he needed a son and heir, and Jane was slow in comming up with the goods. You can sort of understand his jitters in a way, as both C/Katherine and Anne B became pregnant very quickly when they had finally slept with him, so he would have seen the fault with Jane not getting pregnat almost straight away lay not with him but with Jane. To be honest I believe that he devoloped problems and it cause him to have a low sperm count. It was purely by chance that she managed to get pregnant, when she did or I think he would have got shot of her, although not in the same way as he did Anne or K/Catherine. I think he would have persuaded her to enter a convent.
H8’s love was a very fickle thing to be honest. The only real person he truly loved was himself. I agree that his relationship/marriage with Anne was torrid and extremely sexual, but I don’t think he really loved her in the real sence of the word. Love and sex for him were the same thing.
K.H well I think he did love her a little bit, but more from the point of view on how she made him feel. She made him feel young again, and of when K.H’s past came crashing down around him and her, he felt betrayed and vunable. It was said he blubbed when he found out what she had been up to, but those tears weren’t for her they were for him, he had been hurt, he was the poor bleeding martyr sad sack no one loved him etc..It was still me me me with him.

Actually KOA didn’t get a luxurious funeral she was simply given a quick burial and forgotten about it was the Victorians (again) that gave her the memorial she has now in Peterbrough Catherdral. It was really only Jane he gave full honours to as Queen at her burial. Although whether Jane would consider it an honour to share her tomb with H8 the fat lump of lard. I don’t know.
Anne B and K.H were just flung into the ground in 2 bits and never mentioned again.. AOC out lived all the wives, dying in 1557 and is buried under the altar in Westminster Abbey, (her tomb is hard to find) so again AOC was simply buried away and forgotten about. K.P at least did have a fitting memorial, but again this memorial isn’t her original tomb, her original tomb was destroyed during Cromwell’s reign of terror, her coffin was unearthed and forgotten until some lowly farmer found her coffin in the ruins of Sudley Chapel, in 1782, when he opened her coffin, he observed that she was perfectectly preserved, her skin was milky white with rose coloured cheeks and her hair had a sheen to it, like she had been only buried yesterday. After taking a couple of locks from her hair he closed the coffin and reburied it.. It was opened a few times in the next 10 years, until one night in 1792 a couple of drunken farmers buried her coffin upside down, and there it stayed until 1817 when it was found again, however on opening this time they found nothing but a skeleton dressed in a green dress. She was reburied with honours in the recently rebuilt Chandos Vault within the ground of Sudley Castle.. I always feel very sad when I see her effigy the poor woman wed to 3 husbands who were old and really she was more of a nurse to them than a wife, when H8 died she chose a man who was for want of a better word a loose cannon, and a chancer, who breaks her heart, has a child which she probably never thought she would have and then dies. Terribly sad I think.. Of course there are those who think it’s “really great” to deface these beautiful carvings with graffiti and that make me sad as well, for these carving, and monuments are our link to a time gone by, and deserved to be treated with the respect they deserve.
Shut up Boleyn, you will send the poor girl into a coma… Not to mention Anyanka and her Iron maiden…..No Anyanka not again please

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 21, 2014
3:41 pm
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Vivian Hester
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Wow, I definitely had no idea about all this. I feel sorry for KP indeed, though it seems to me that she did love Thomas Seymour but maybe that was also just a forced marriage. Can’t believe that woman didn’t have a proper burial in her time, even as a former Queen of England. I guess that no longer mattered after Henry died and she married Seymour. I like to believe he did love Anne the most, since it’s hard for me to understand that he only went through so much just to get her in bed, though that must be it indeed – I think love and sex were indeed one and the same for him. Poor Jane, she must have felt terrible. Keeping in mind how the former Queen had left, being under so much pressure for a son and probably feeling anxious… I think Anne of Cleves was really the one who was the most lucky. She didn’t have to bear him for long, became his sister and could befriend his daughters. But I feel so sorry for all of his wwives though… CoA because she tried so hard to satisfy him, AB because she was thrown out just because she could not give him a boy, Jane because she was under so much pressure and died so soon, AoC because she was at first victimized by that old pig of a king, CH because she was punnished for just being young and in love and KP because she had to spend her days with a man who probably never loved her. Though I definitely love KP because she brought Mary and Elizabeth back to the succession. Who knows what would have happened if she didn’t… it imght have been a whole lot messier and bloodier then.

Anne Boleyn: just a strong woman with incredible dignity who lived in an era that didn't approve of that.

May 21, 2014
5:50 pm
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Boleyn
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Nope K.P was alledgely already in love with Thomas Seymour when H8 cast his beady eyes on her.. Thomas too was in love with K.P. more interested ih her wealth though I believe, as she was quite wealthy, both of her prior husbands had left her well off. They were chosen for her, by her mother, Maud Parr (formally Green) K.P had chosen Thomas for herself, and I think she would have married him, had H8 not decided to marry her himself.. He sent Thomas away on a diplomatic mission so that he could woo (if it could be called that) K.P, and she had married him, willingly. She said that God had told her to marry Henry, but I rather think that she hadn’t got any other choice but to marry H8, and by saying God had told her to marry H8 she may have flattered his rather oversized, well in fact over inflated ego.
When H8 died, she married Thomas in May of 1547.
Each wife had their merits and their own problems in how to deal with a big headed blustering bleeding martyr lying cheating sad sack of shit called Henry (He’s not my favourite person I afraid)
COA taught him how to reign, Anne.B taught him how to rule. Thomas More once said “If the lion (Henry) knew his own strength then no man could hold him” and he was right. Once H8 was shown that he could both reign and rule there was no stopping him, the country became a disjointed mass of problems, and to be honest he was too stupid (loosesly worded) to see the damage he was doing to his own country and to his people. This will sound extremely coarse. but basically he wasn’t using his head when he tore the country apart he was using his ****.
He turned the country upside down all for the love of one woman, and just because she failed to give him the son he so wanted he turned it inside out to get rid of her.. The next 10 years of his life was spent lurching from one crisis to another. Upon his death in 1547 I would say the country was in a state of limbo but young Edward’s reign was just a bloody in it’s own way both his uncles, the last of his mother’s family were slain for a start, dogged with ill heath, and for ever plagued by Mary and her Catholic faction etc. Mary’s reign was even worse and all hell broke loose there. She killed more people in 1 year than the Spanish inquirsistion, and the French purges had in 5 years. Bloody Mary by name and nature. Apart from burning Cramner in 1557, If the rumour is true, which many people believe it to be so. The burning of Petromane Massey has to be one of her worst attrocies. A heavily Pregnant woman burnt at the stake for her protestant views, gives birth in the flames, and manages to chuck the baby out of the flames to someone in the crowd, the guard immediantly, takes the baby from the woman who caught and throws it back into the flames to die along side it’s mother. This is mentioned I believe in Fox’s book of Martyrs.
It was really only after Elizabeth came to the throne that she was able to stop all the hassles of the last 21 years (1537 1558) and bring the country to peace, in fact a united peace where for the most part Catholic and Protestant could live together in peace.
If K.P hadn’t of succeeded in getting Mary and Elizabeth reinstated, then the throne would have quite possibly gone to the 11 year old Mary Queen of Scots, after Edward died, being as she was the grand-daughter of his elder sister Margaret. Although having said that. I think H8 would have known what uproar that would have caused to have to the English people, (Scotland being the sworn enemy of England) I don’t think he would have allowed his people to be ruled by the Franco/Scottish Queen. I think Mary Tudor would have got the throne anyway.
Lady Jane grey was only named as Queen because Northumberland was keen to keep the reins of power in his hands, or rather I think that he was fleecing the treasury right left and centre and did want his activities to become known. With Jane Grey and his son Guildford as his puppet King and Queen , he could rule the whole of England in their name and no one would be able to stop him.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 21, 2014
6:02 pm
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Sharon
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Anne of Cleves was the lucky one, but I wonder if that is the way she would have seen it? She wasn’t beheaded, and she was given estates and treated as the king’s sister; and even though that gave her high status, she must have felt cheated. She was no longer queen. She had to have felt embarrassed having been put aside like she was. She came to a foreign land to marry and become queen, and she was set aside like she was not at all important. That must have stung a bit. She did make the best out of her situation, but I think she always desired to be Henry’s queen. When KH died, Anne and her brother were hoping Henry would take her back as queen. She was upset when Henry chose Katherine Parr.
Elizabeth had one of her mother’s “A” necklaces and it can be seen in the mural of the family. Although you really can’t see it very well. Claire has seen it, and has confirmed it. The ring, called the Exchequer Ring, that she wore with her mother’s portrait on one side and her portrait on the other was commissioned for her in 1570. She never took it off her finger. I don’t think Anne had it previously. Is that the one you mean, Boleyn?
Jane and Henry weren’t married a week before he was commenting that he should have waited to marry as there were so many beauties at court in which he could have chosen from. She was not well treated by Henry until she finally became pregnant.

May 21, 2014
6:42 pm
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Boleyn
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I believe she felt most disgruntled about it Sharon, not too sure though.. Although she was in some ways lucky to have survived the walking stinking disaster Zone called Henry, It cost her, her family. Whether or not that was a good or a bad thing for her I don’t suppose we will ever know.

But I kind of think that she may have felt a little out of place. After Henry kicked her out of his life, she was solely dependant upon him to look after her. Any letter she had written to and recieved from her family in Dussledorf was no doubt censored in some way. I believe she was told what to write to her brother when H8 wanted shot of her. Did she actually have any of her german ladies with her during the rest of her lifetime. I know she came over with some but they were all sent back home within a few weeks of the marriage.
Although she was treated with due respect and given the honoury title of King’s sister she was in truth still an outsider and an outcast. All the while H8 was alive she was treated with respect etc, but wants old breezy breetches had popped his clogs, she had no one to champion her. Edward didn’t see why he should have to pay her allowance after she had been nothing to his father and the title of king’s sister was just a honoury one anyway. So for his reign she lived in somewhat inprovished circumstances. I believe at one point she wrote to her brother in desperation to ask him for some money just to pay her servants. She was very freindly with Mary Tudor, and that could be another reason to why Edward got the hump with Anne at some point. I don’t suppose it helped her much that just after H8 death or at some point in Edward’s reign she converted to Catholisum. Although she was brought up a Lutheran (one of the reasons Cromwell pushed H8 into marriage with her as well as consoladating his own power and influance over H8) Anne’s mother was a Catholic or had been brought up as Catholic. Either way Anne was treated with a lot more respect in Mary Tudor’s reign than she was in Edward’s She even shared a coach with Elizabeth at Mary’s Coronation. The last few years of her life were spent quietly either at her home in Chelsea or at Hever. Of all H8 Queens I think AOC was the most humble and respectful.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 22, 2014
11:38 am
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Boleyn
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Sharon said

Anne of Cleves was the lucky one, but I wonder if that is the way she would have seen it? She wasn’t beheaded, and she was given estates and treated as the king’s sister; and even though that gave her high status, she must have felt cheated. She was no longer queen. She had to have felt embarrassed having been put aside like she was. She came to a foreign land to marry and become queen, and she was set aside like she was not at all important. That must have stung a bit. She did make the best out of her situation, but I think she always desired to be Henry’s queen. When KH died, Anne and her brother were hoping Henry would take her back as queen. She was upset when Henry chose Katherine Parr.
Elizabeth had one of her mother’s “A” necklaces and it can be seen in the mural of the family. Although you really can’t see it very well. Claire has seen it, and has confirmed it. The ring, called the Exchequer Ring, that she wore with her mother’s portrait on one side and her portrait on the other was commissioned for her in 1570. She never took it off her finger. I don’t think Anne had it previously. Is that the one you mean, Boleyn?
Jane and Henry weren’t married a week before he was commenting that he should have waited to marry as there were so many beauties at court in which he could have chosen from. She was not well treated by Henry until she finally became pregnant.

Yes Sharon that’s the ring, If it wasn’t her mother’s ring in the first place it just goes to prove that although H8 tried to completely air brush Anne out of his memory as well as hers. he didn’t succeed. I find it rather touching, that Elizabeth carried her mother’s portrait with her, but I equally find it strange that the other side of the locket ring didn’t contain a picture of her father.. (Unless of course she couldn’t find a picture small enough of H8 to fit in it.;)) Elizabeth may have said she was a lion’s cub and yes I agree she certainly was she did indeed have the heart and stomach of a King, but at the same time she had her mother’s wit and life spark if that makes sence. Anne was murdered by H8, before Elizabeth was 3 years old, but she must have had some memory of her, although to be fair, it’s possible that Kat Ashley probably helped to keep Anne alive in Elizabeth’s memory.. I’m not to sure, but I believe in the Royal Chapel at Hampton court there is a carving of Anne’s and H8’s initials still high up on the ceiling somewhere.. H8’s chippies (carpenters) didn’t quite manage to chop out everything of Anne.
H8 I think was looking into the possiblity of a foreign match within weeks of his marriage with Jane. I believe if the Pilgramage of Grace riots hadn’t of erupted when they did H8 would have got rid of Jane and be married to some foriegn bride by the end of the year or by January/Feburary of 1537. In a way the Pilgramage of Grace Riots threw Jane the lifeline she needed. H8’s mind was busy on putting down the troubles in his own kingdom to be worried about his marriage issues so to speak. Once H8 had brought his country under control, he perhaps would have found a way to annul his marriage to Jane and remarried. But her pregnancy saved her yet again.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 26, 2014
11:32 am
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Boleyn
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If K.P hadn’t of succeeded in getting Mary and Elizabeth reinstated, then the throne would have quite possibly gone to the 11 year old Mary Queen of Scots, after Edward died, being as she was the grand-daughter of his elder sister Margaret.
Margaret is H8 elder sister. Mary Queen of Scots being her Grand-daughter.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

May 31, 2014
6:25 pm
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Sharon
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Boleyn said

If K.P hadn’t of succeeded in getting Mary and Elizabeth reinstated, then the throne would have quite possibly gone to the 11 year old Mary Queen of Scots, after Edward died, being as she was the grand-daughter of his elder sister Margaret.
Margaret is H8 elder sister. Mary Queen of Scots being her Grand-daughter.

Parish the thought.
Confused

June 5, 2014
2:56 pm
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Shae
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Boleyn said
The Victorians who excavated under the altar in St Peter’s were pretty certain that both of H8’s executed Queens were there, as was poor old hapless Jane Boleyn.

Not quite; one body was never recovered, widely believed to be that of Katherine Howard. Weir theorises that the body identified as Anne Boleyn was actually Katherine Howard, and that the body identified and buried as Lady Rochford was actually Anne Boleyn (making Jane Parker the missing skeleton) however personally I don’t think her theory holds much water, and I’m convinced the Victorians did identify the two women correctly. The only issue is that Katherine’s was never found.

However, for all we know, it’s a possibility that Weir is right…

When it comes to stories of Anne’s burial, however, there are plenty of stories about where her body ended up. Again, I think the truth is that Anne lies in St Peter’s, but still, the other stories (which you can read about here http://www.theanneboleynfiles……ound/6444/) are fun!

No Other Will But Hers

June 7, 2014
12:21 pm
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Boleyn
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Yes Shae you are right, but I think it was believe that due to K.H.’s age at the time of her death, (which no one really know for sure) her bones could have completely rotted down to nothing. I’m not entirely sure, but I believe that when the vault was opened the Victorians quickly identified Anne as they found a headless Skeleton, with it’s skull tucked under it’s arm. next to her was another skeleton, although, slightly incomplete and then another skeleton, which they concluded was Jane Boleyn.
Although we know that Anne was given a coffin of sorts, did K.H and J.B have coffins provided for them? Another thing that has been buzzing around in my head (plenty of room there too) Is it just possible that Jane isn’t there at all? Anne and K.H I can understand being buried there, but is it just possible that H8 allowed her body to be returned to her own family for burial? After all she had no other family did she? The Boleyn’s were all dead, so there were no in laws, and she had no children to claim her body. Howard (The odious jumped up cretinous poppingjay) had dropped her like a hot brick, so he wouldn’t want anything to do with her, dead or alive. So it does seem to me as being perfectly logical for Jane’s Father to ask H8 for him to allow to bury his daughter within their own family grounds. So the second full skeleton found next to Anne is K.H and the incomplete skeleton is nothing to do with either woman. I’m given to believe that the Victorians judged the skeleton’s age to be that of a young female around the age of 16/17, which they then concluded as K.H. Again the age issue with K.H, the tower was a community within a commnunity and it could well have been a child of one of the tower residents at the time. Personally I think that K.H was around the age of about 18/19 when she died.
I agree with you entirely that Anne is in St Peter’s, Henry didn’t want anyone to make a martyr out of Anne he simply wanted the people to forget she even existed. Tough Luck Fat boy didn’t work did it, she is.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 7, 2014
3:54 pm
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Sharon
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This is what Weir is selling:
http://www.theanneboleynfiles……ody-found/

This is the evidence that Dr Mouat reported:
http://www.theanneboleynfiles……leyn/6426/

I think in Katherine Howard’s case, the combination of her youth and the use of lime which was found in the place where she was thought to be buried, led to her bones being destroyed. There doesn’t seem to be any bones found of a 16/17 year old.
The skeleton they did find and the one which was thought to be Jane’s was between 30 to 40 years of age. The next bones examined were thought to be that of a tall older lady, which is thought to be Lady Salisbury. The body found next to Anne, on her right, is supposedly the Duke of Somerset, then the Duke of Northumberland, Katherine, Jane, and the Lady Salisbury.

June 7, 2014
6:11 pm
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Boleyn
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Thank you Sharon. I find it so hard to come to terms with the fact the bodies were more or less chucked in the vault and had a shovel or 2 of quicklime thrown over them and then simply just forgotten, no gravestone or anything to know who these people actually were. Yes their burials were recorded as being there, but other than that nothing. I suppose we should be thankful that the Victorians, at least gave them a memorial of sorts.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 10, 2014
11:56 am
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Boleyn
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Is it entirely possible that the empty space which the Victorians concluded was K.H may have actually been Lady Jane Grey? She was alledgely only around 16 when she was executed. So again given her youth and the use of quick lime it was her bones that was completely destroyed not K.H as first thought.
The trouble is that given the jumble of bodies down there there could be no knowing who was who?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

June 10, 2014
4:35 pm
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Sharon
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Since they found Jane Boleyn in that first row, and she was killed with Katherine, it is safe to assume that it is her grave next to Jane’s. I think they found the people in Anne’s row right where they thought they were buried. Apparently, there was a record that Bell followed of who was buried where in that front row.
Jane Grey is thought to be buried in the second row behind Anne, next to Guilford on one side, and her father on the other side. By the time Jane Grey died that first row, the one Anne is buried in, would have been all filled up. Wink
http://speedy.theanneboleynfil…..itions.jpg

This is the report from Bell:
http://books.google.com/books?…..38;f=false

June 12, 2014
4:28 am
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Anyanka
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Boleyn said

If K.P hadn’t of succeeded in getting Mary and Elizabeth reinstated, then the throne would have quite possibly gone to the 11 year old Mary Queen of Scots, after Edward died, being as she was the grand-daughter of his elder sister Margaret.
Margaret is H8 elder sister. Mary Queen of Scots being her Grand-daughter.

I’d would have thought that Margaret Douglas, daughter of Margaret and a member of Henry’s court should have somconsideration as her mother’s heir too.

Henry was expecting Edward to marry Mary QoS and unite the kingdoms under Tudor rule.

It's always bunnies.

June 12, 2014
12:12 pm
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Boleyn
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I believe at one point Mary (bloody) was toying, with the idea of naming M.Douglas as her heir, by extention of of course that would have Henry Lord Darnley her son, so again to my mind it still looks like Mary QoS, would have somehow been involved with the English throne. Mary QoS was determined to take the English throne, which she felt was hers by right.

I can’t help thinking that if she had worked with Elizabeth instead of trying to underpin everything Elizabeth did for the English people she may have got on a little better with her. Although Mary did at first try to get on with Elizabeth and with her Scottish people, the fact was in the back of her mind was this almost insane obsession that she had more right to Elizabeth’s throne. I think it was David Schuma who said it, “that all of Englands problems could have been solved if Mary and Elizabeth had married each other. In a way they had, for they had a baby it was only a little thing with a big name Magna Britannia”

To be honest I think he’s right if they had met one another I think they could have solved all their personal issues with each other in just one afternoon, over tea, cakes and maybe a nice Cuban cigar or 2.

What a tangled mess the English throne was during the death of E6 and Elizabeth’s accension.
The rough wooing certainly was very turbulant for E6. The stupid thing is that Marie de Guise, could see the advantages of a marriage beween England and Scotland, she may not of liked it very much, but the protential was there. It was Cardinal Beaton who put the spanner in the works there, that prompted all the hassles Scotland had, I rather think that the English would have succeeded in their plans to abduct Mary by force and bring her to England, if France hadn’t of been involved.
Mary I have down as a frivilous, decadant, hedonistic, self obsessed weak willed empty headed person who believed that what she was doing was right, and refused to accept crtisium or blame for any of her faults. It was always someone else’s fault when things went wrong.(sounds very like H8) Instead of learning from her mistakes and making sure that she never again allowed herself to be put in such a situation, she continued to make mistake after mistake. I suppose one could liken her to a lemming, rushing head long into danger oblivious that that danger could lead to her death. She needed a very firm hand to guide and advice her. She used her charm in the wrong way and ultimately it was seen as her very weakness and was exploited to the max.
Elizabeth had her charm too but in her case she was a excellent player on the charm stage. When she used her charm she always used it to benefit her and the country.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod

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