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Tudor Spanking
November 9, 2012
5:03 pm
Claire
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February 16, 2009
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An AB Files visitor sent me a link about the history of spanking, because of the Tudor bit, but the adult nature of the site means that I can't really share it in a post. Here's the link:

http://voiceinthecorner.com/20…..-spanking/

and here's the Tudor bit:

"Meanwhile in England the teenage Princess Mary, the future Mary I was spanked on the orders of her step mother Anne Boleyn. It is thought that she was so resented by Anne, that her servants birched her for the least offence. There is even one story that Anne herself once held Mary down and applied a slipper to her bottom.

A few years later another future queen of England, Lady Jane Grey, was also birched by her mother and her governess on the orders of her father. This was well illustrated in the movie with Helena Bonham-Carter, although in fact Jane was flogged in this manner over several months.

There was nothing unusual about Lady Jane’s treatment. At the time, women of good birth were often birched. The flogging of Tudor gentlewomen was usually carried out in the long gallery, as the name suggests, a long room that was hung with family portraits of long dead ancestors who would look down on the miscreant in disapproval."

I have never heard of Anne spanking Mary like that and Lady Jane Grey told Roger Ascham that her parents punished her "with pinches, nips, and bobs, and other ways" which, even if it's true, is far from "birching" her.

Your thoughts?

Debunking the myths about Anne Boleyn
November 9, 2012
8:58 pm
Boleyn
Kent.
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January 3, 2012
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Most royal household had a whipping boy. Little Eddy's whipping boy I believe was someone called Barnaby Fitzpatrick, in fact it was considered to be a honour to be a royal whipping boy. I don't know about the girls if they had a whipping girl, but given that in general men, be it husband's or father's and even brother's (as in the case of Buckingham and his sister) they were the ones who dished out the punishment on the woman.
Jane Grey's situation is a bit of a difficult one to comprehend, was she as some people believe belted by her parents on an almost daily basis or was a lot of it just hype in the later years after her death to make a good story? I must admit being guilty of believing that Jane's mother was the wicked witch of Suffolk towards Jane, but given what I've read and what has been debated on the forum, I was wrong to believe it..
I feel that certainly there were times when Frances was perhaps annoyed at Jane lack of interest in any of the pursuits that she was intrerested in, such as hunting, and hawking? and that at times there were perhaps very heated arguements, but beating the hell out of Jane just because she chose to stay curled up in the corner with a book just doesn't seem right.
Was Jane beaten into submission to marry Guildford? Hmm that's a tough one I think perhaps Jane may have said she didn't want to marry Guildford and perhaps received a thick ear for talking back to her parents, when they had told her she was going to marry Guildford. But like all Tudor nobel girls they married who their parents chose and that was the end of the matter. They just had to make the best of the situation. I have to admire Jane's stand against Guildford when she became Queen as she made it clear there and then that she would not have Guildford crowned or be given the crown at any time in the future, that tells me that she had some spirit in her, if she had been literely beaten black and blue every day I feel that she would be a little mouse of a girl , who was afraid of breathing in instead of breathing out.
Did she have any feelings at all for Guildford? other than the fact she was his wife, or did they truely have affection for one another?

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
November 12, 2012
1:22 am
Anyanka
La Belle Province
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November 18, 2010
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In one of Jane's letters to Mary, she refered to herself as being a "true and loving wife" to Guildford. Whether this was how she felt or wther it was a conventinal statement is up for debate.

Did men and women of the social elite expect to have a happy marriage? Probably not. They understood that they married to please family and in the case of the extended royal family of whom Jane was, they could expect to marry to further political alleigences either in their home country or abroad.

If they were lucky then love or at least mutual affection and respect could blossom. But without direct evidence such as truthfully written letters or diaries we really don't know what happened on these marriages.

It's always bunnies.
November 12, 2012
1:49 am
Anyanka
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Boleyn said

Jane Grey's situation is a bit of a difficult one to comprehend, was she as some people believe belted by her parents on an almost daily basis or was a lot of it just hype in the later years after her death to make a good story? I must admit being guilty of believing that Jane's mother was the wicked witch of Suffolk towards Jane, but given what I've read and what has been debated on the forum, I was wrong to believe it..
I feel that certainly there were times when Frances was perhaps annoyed at Jane lack of interest in any of the pursuits that she was intrerested in, such as hunting, and hawking? and that at times there were perhaps very heated arguements, but beating the hell out of Jane just because she chose to stay curled up in the corner with a book just doesn't seem right.

Hunting and hawking weren't just a social event but also at times a necessity to help eke out the family's meat supplies. To be accomplished at these skills showed a degree of responsiblity towards rthe family budget.

Even if Frances didn't like Jane staying behind and reading, Jane was allowed to correspond with scolars both in England and further afield. That doesn't sit well with the image of a child repeatedly beaten for not following her family's rules. And it appears that it was only to Asham that such a sentiment was expressed by Jane.

It's always bunnies.
November 12, 2012
1:53 am
Anyanka
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November 18, 2010
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Claire said

"Meanwhile in England the teenage Princess Mary, the future Mary I was spanked on the orders of her step mother Anne Boleyn. It is thought that she was so resented by Anne, that her servants birched her for the least offence. There is even one story that Anne herself once held Mary down and applied a slipper to her bottom.

I'm sure Chapyus would have mentioned such an event if it really happened. Given how many people corresponded with him regarding mary's treatment , I can't believe that piece of gossip would not have been reported to Charles.

It's always bunnies.
November 12, 2012
2:00 am
Anyanka
La Belle Province
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Claire said

Your thoughts?

Hey…we just do what our fore-bears did…didn't hurt them …

Sounds like a typical apologist diatribe for a slighly kinky activity. Sure spanking is part of human sexuality along with a hod load of other consentual behaviour but there's a lot of "methinks the lady doth protest too much" about that particular blog post.

It's always bunnies.
November 12, 2012
12:33 pm
Boleyn
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January 3, 2012
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Anyanka said

Boleyn said

Jane Grey's situation is a bit of a difficult one to comprehend, was she as some people believe belted by her parents on an almost daily basis or was a lot of it just hype in the later years after her death to make a good story? I must admit being guilty of believing that Jane's mother was the wicked witch of Suffolk towards Jane, but given what I've read and what has been debated on the forum, I was wrong to believe it..
I feel that certainly there were times when Frances was perhaps annoyed at Jane lack of interest in any of the pursuits that she was intrerested in, such as hunting, and hawking? and that at times there were perhaps very heated arguements, but beating the hell out of Jane just because she chose to stay curled up in the corner with a book just doesn't seem right.

Hunting and hawking weren't just a social event but also at times a necessity to help eke out the family's meat supplies. To be accomplished at these skills showed a degree of responsiblity towards rthe family budget.

Even if Frances didn't like Jane staying behind and reading, Jane was allowed to correspond with scolars both in England and further afield. That doesn't sit well with the image of a child repeatedly beaten for not following her family's rules. And it appears that it was only to Asham that such a sentiment was expressed by Jane.

This is true Anyanka, I must admit the thought of eating salted meat doesn't seem very nice especially later on in the depths of winter where the meat would have started to decay. As for marriage well it was a case of making the best of the situation, there were the odd love matches, but for the most part a marriage was based on mutral respect and understanding. Love was seen as a useless and un-neccessary thing..
I agree about Jane, like I said she was probably given the odd thick ear but being beaten seven bells out of "No" I don't think so..

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
November 12, 2012
4:32 pm
Sharon
Binghamton, NY
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Forum Posts: 1892
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February 24, 2010
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Claire said

An AB Files visitor sent me a link about the history of spanking, because of the Tudor bit, but the adult nature of the site means that I can't really share it in a post. Here's the link:

http://voiceinthecorner.com/20…..-spanking/

and here's the Tudor bit:

"Meanwhile in England the teenage Princess Mary, the future Mary I was spanked on the orders of her step mother Anne Boleyn. It is thought that she was so resented by Anne, that her servants birched her for the least offence. There is even one story that Anne herself once held Mary down and applied a slipper to her bottom.

A few years later another future queen of England, Lady Jane Grey, was also birched by her mother and her governess on the orders of her father. This was well illustrated in the movie with Helena Bonham-Carter, although in fact Jane was flogged in this manner over several months.

There was nothing unusual about Lady Jane’s treatment. At the time, women of good birth were often birched. The flogging of Tudor gentlewomen was usually carried out in the long gallery, as the name suggests, a long room that was hung with family portraits of long dead ancestors who would look down on the miscreant in disapproval."

I have never heard of Anne spanking Mary like that and Lady Jane Grey told Roger Ascham that her parents punished her "with pinches, nips, and bobs, and other ways" which, even if it's true, is far from "birching" her.

Your thoughts?

I guess I want to know where the author found her facts about Anne spanking Mary. How did Chapuys miss that tidbit? Even if it was something that was acceptable behaviour for a parent or step-parent to beat their children, I don't think Chapuys would have missed out on writing down every slap Anne gave Mary.
Same question about Jane Grey. What Jane told Ascham was teenage venting, and she never said she was beaten by anyone.

November 12, 2012
4:57 pm
Boleyn
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January 3, 2012
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Jane was probably beaten (loosely worded) no more than any other child of her station. I believe a lot of these stories about Jane been systematically abused by her mother, is no more than hype put around 100 of years after her death. As for Mary being slapped by Anne, yes I agree it's funny that nothing about these supossed slappings were mentioned by Chapuys, I would have thought he would have been the first to have mentioned any sort of this treatment to the Emperor. Although the Duke of Norfolk (odious little git) did say to her that if she was his daughter he would bang her head against the wall until it was as soft as a baked apple. Again I believe Mary, Eddy's and Elizabeth's chatisement were not inhuman, just generally the odd thick ear or slapped hand for inapproipiate behaviour.
Kids back then only had to hear a raised voice and that was enough to make them contrite, and bear in mind that they went to executions and would have known that whatever the convicted person had done was a very serious crime so knew that any behaviour which was wrong could well lead them to the scaffold, no matter how meaningless the crime.

Semper Fidelis, quod sum quod
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